All the secrets of Bohemian Grove are revealed, including the fact that these guys reveal themselves way, way too often.

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• From I Obtained the Attendance List For Bohemian Grove, Dan Boguslaw, Responsible State Craft, 2026: Bohemian Grove is an exclusive mens-only club that hosts a two-week summer retreat for the rich and powerful at a 2,700 acre compound in the redwoods of Northern California. With a $25,000 initiation fee and a decades-long membership waiting list, the hideaway was described in a 1989 Spy article as “the most exclusive frat party on earth.” The club serves as a popular destination for national security officials and defense industry executives to fraternize and party, far from the public eye. The 2023 camp attendance list includes two former national security advisors, three former Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and two former directors of the NSA. A 2017 roster, which lists all dues-paying members of the club, included three former directors of the CIA. Each club member is assigned to one of 130 separate “camps” inside the compound, which act as fraternities for attendees to party together. “Mandalay” is seen as the most elite camp, whose members in 2023 included Henry Kissinger, Sen. Dave McCormick (R-Pa.), and Riley Bechtel, the billionaire heir of the Bechtel corporation. A visitor once said of Mandalay, “you don’t just walk in there — you are summoned.” “Wayside Log” appears to be another watering hole for the national security community and defense contractors. Its members include former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers and J. Michael Myatt, a Marine Corps Major General who became an executive for Bechtel after leaving government. 
  • Bohemian Grove also serves as a place for these buttoned-up generals turned defense executives to let loose. While the rule of not talking business is widely ignored, another unwritten rule is “everyone drinks all the time.” Longtime member and musician Peter Arnott wrote that every camp in the Grove is “competing to pour drinks down your throat” in a summer 2009 edition of the club magazine. While the Bohemian Grove’s motto is “Weaving Spiders Come Not Here,” meaning leave your business outside, this rule is often ignored. More recently, Sen. McCormick wracked up over a dozen high dollar donors from fellow club members ahead of announcing his successful senate bid in 2023. In 1967 President Nixon gave a lakeside talk at the Bohemian Grove that he would later claim was instrumental to launching his bid for the presidency. According to Spy magazine, the practice of flagrantly flouting the Club’s only public rule has been going on since at least 1989, though likely much longer; State Department cables published by Wikileaks indicate that longtime member Kissinger — who attended the 2023 retreat just months before his death — discussed business at the retreats in the 1970s. We reached out to many of the national security officials who are members of the Bohemian Grove, but none responded to a request for comment. https://substack.com/@drboguslaw/p-190622651 
• From Sociology of the San Francisco Bohemian Club, Peter Martin Phillips, UC Davis, 1994: For over 150 years private men’s clubs have existed as a place of personal retreat for socio-economic elite men in American society. U.S. elite men’s clubs are seen by some social scientists as the American equivalent to European aristocracy. Defining a gentleman was one of the essential characteristics of U.S. men’s clubs and a mark of success in American Society. Elite men’s clubs tend to be introspectively oriented: Major activities, events and interactions tend to occur within club boundaries primarily for the members’ and guests’ own self-gratification. Clubs tend to establish traditions and maintain an internal culture to which new members receive some form of indoctrination before or after joining. Finally, elite men’s clubs offer their members a safe sanctum that meets personal needs away from less ordered environments. A man is an aristocrat within the confines of his club: He has supportive staff to wait on him and other aristocrats with similar interests. An elite men’s club is a system of ordered civility in what is perceived as an otherwise chaotic and disorderly world. Elite men’s clubs are actually a relatively rare phenomenon, with perhaps fewer than two hundred in the United States. Given the ubiquitous Rotary, Elks and Lions clubs in every small town in American, two hundred elite clubs is a rare phenomenon indeed. London’s West End men’s clubs, the prototype for American clubs, originated as regular gatherings of men with similar interests in taverns or coffee shops. Sir Walter Raleigh is reported to have founded the Friday Street Club which met at the Mermaid Tavern. Club life in London represented the collective alliance of men with similar tastes and perspectives. Scientific and literary clubs were some of the more honorable associations while gambling and drinking organizations abounded. 
  • Organized in 1872, the Bohemian Club was established in San Francisco as a gathering place for newspaper reporters and men who like arts and literature. (The origin of the term bohemian comes from the French artistic movement of the 1830’s and represented the mutual supportive companionship of artists and intellectuals.) By the 1880’s, businessmen had joined the Club in large numbers, as the original Bohemians found that admitting men of wealth helped pay the expenses. Club activities included poetry recitations, performances by musicians, lectures, and frequent plays. Bohemians liked to publicize their prominence by releasing news reports of important guests attending the Grove or Club functions. Oscar Wilde was entertained at the Bohemian Club in 1882 and is said to have drunk his guests under the table. The San Francisco Chronicle gave first page coverage to the opening of the new clubhouse on November 13, 1910. It was even common for the Bay Area newspapers to report on Bohemian elections and present the platforms of the various candidates for office. In the eleven-year period between 1904 and 1915, the Chronicle ran 331 stories on the Bohemian Club. This represented a yearly average of thirty articles, making Bohemia one of the most highly publicized club in the San Francisco Bay Area. 
    •  In 1878, several dozen Bohemians held a gathering in the forest in Sonoma County near what is now known as Camp Taylor. This was the start of a long Bohemian tradition of trekking to the Sonoma County redwoods during July and August for camping and self entertainment. By 1882, Bohemians were doing regular midsummer weekend campouts under the stars at various locations in Sonoma County. They rented what is now known as the Bohemian Grove from the Sonoma Lumber Company. The Bohemia’s symbol is an owl, which has been in use since the first year the Club started. The owl has come to symbolize the wisdom of life and companionship, that allows humans to struggle with and survive the cares and frustration of the world. A forty foot concrete owl stands at the head of the lake in the Grove, built in 1929 to serve as a ceremonial site. The Cremation of Care Ceremony was produced as a play in 1920, wherein a High Priest is confronted by “Dull Care,” wrapped in the chains but not dead because Bacchus, the only warrior Care fears, is dead. (The 18th Amendment was passed in 1919). Care is burned, thereby purging the “sacred Grove.” This ceremony has been rewritten on several occasions but the theme is still the same, and Care is still dispatched yearly in a fiery death that symbolizes the initiation of Bohemian fellowship.
• From Masters of the Universe Go to Camp, Philip Weiss, Spy Magazine, 1989: Monte Rio is a depressed Northern California town of 900 where the forest is so thick that some streetlights stay on all day long. Every summer for more than a century, the Bohemian Club has led a retreat into this redwood forest. The religion they consecrate is right-wing, laissez-faire and quintessentially western, with some Druid tree worship thrown in for fun. For me, the trick was getting in. A guest card was out of the question: club bylaws have stated that a member-sponsor’s application “shall be in writing and shall contain full information for the guidance of the Board in determining the merits and qualifications of the proposed guest.” And my attempts to get a job as a waiter or a valet in one of the camps failed. In the end I entered by stealth. Some observers of the Grove had warned that security was too good and they’d put me in the Santa Rosa jail for trespassing. Lowell Bergman, a producer with 60 Minutes who used to hunt rabbits in the nearby hills, remembered a fire road leading into the site near the Guerneville waste-treatment plant but said they’d spot me sneaking in. Others mentioned barbed wire and electronic monitoring devices. Finally, a mountain guide demanded only that I keep the methods he devised for me confidential. He had a keen geographical sense and a girlfriend who described a plan to seed magic crystals at the Grove gates to make them open of their own accord so that Native American drummers could walk in. We didn’t do it that way, but it turned out that Grove security isn’t quite what it’s reputed to be. The sociologists who had studied the place were right; there was no real security. I told everyone I was a guest of Bromley camp, where unsortable visitors end up. At 33, I was one of the youngest Bohemians, but I was welcome almost as a policy matter. “We looked around and saw we were becoming an old-men’s club,” a member said, explaining recent efforts to recruit fresh blood. I used my real name. No one inside acted suspicious. One day a member asked if I was related to a Bohemian named Jack Weiss. “No, but I’ve heard a lot about him and I’d like to meet him.” “You can’t,” he said. “He’s dead.” After that I began working a dead West Coast relative’s promise to have me out to the Grove one summer into a shaggy-dog story about my invitation. I was able to enjoy most pleasures of the Grove, notably the speeches, songs, elaborate drag shows, endless toasts, pre-breakfast gin fizzes, round-the-clock “Nembutals” and other drinks — though I didn’t sleep in any of the camps or swim naked with likeminded Bohemians in the Russian River at night.
  • One reason for the Bohemian Club’s poor public relations is the name it gave to the yearly opening ceremony: The Cremation of Care. The cremation is intended to put the busy men of the club at ease and banish the stress of the outside world, but it arouses critics of the encampment because they interpret it to mean that Bohemians literally don’t care about the outside world. Cremation of Care, they fear, means the death of caring. Demonstrations outside the Grove a few years back often centered around the “Resurrection of Care.” The club says it serves as a “refuge” from the strivings of the marketplace, and though it’s true that actual deal-making is discouraged, I heard business being done on all sides. A tenet of Grove life is noncompetitive egalitarianism: all men are equal here. But in fact, class and status differences among camps are pronounced. Just as you have to be sponsored for membership, you have to be sponsored for a camp. The sexism and racism were of a peculiar sort: Black jokes are out because there are a handful of black members — though one day near the Civic Center I did hear a group of old-timers trying to imitate Jesse Jackson. As for Jews, old membership lists suggest that they have taken a very small part in the club for decades. That leaves women and Hispanics. When Ronald Reagan came to the green parasol one day, the organ player broke into “California, Here I Come.” Reagan said that it was good to be back. The Grove had been a major factor in his “homesickness… when you are forced to be away, as I was, for eight years.” The speech was canned and courtly. Though he cursed now and then, he seemed uncomfortable with the word damn. It was my last hour at the Grove. My bags were packed — a camera in one pocket, a tape recorder in the other. I’d tried to grab one of the free Bohemian Club walking sticks from the museum, something I could lean against my office wall as a reminder that this had not been just a dream. But there were none left; Bohemians had taken them all hiking.
• From Transcript of the Cremation of Care, Graham Hancock, 2007: O Beauty’s vassals Who keep, in this gray autumn of the world, Her springtime in your hearts, I charge ye all: For lasting happiness we lift our eyes To one alone, and she surrounds you now, Great Nature, refuge for the weary heart And only balm for breasts that have been bruised, Her counsels are most wise. But ye must come As children, little children that believe, Nor ever doubt her beauty or her faith, Nor dream her tenderness can change or die! Nay, thou mocking Care, it is not all a dream. We know thou waitest for us when this our sylvan holiday shall end. And we shall meet and fight thee as of old, and some of us prevail against thee, and some thou shalt destroy. But this, too, we know: year after year, within this happy Grove, our fellowship has banned thee for a space, and thy malevolence that would pursue us here has lost its power beneath these friendly trees. So shall we burn thee once again this night and in the flames that eat thine effigy we’ll read the sign: Midsummer set us free. No fire, if it be kindled from the world Where Care is nourished on the hates of men Shall drive him from this Grove. One flame alone Must light this pyre, the pure eternal flame That burns within the Lamp of Fellowship Upon the altar of Bohemia. Great Owl of Bohemia, we thank thee for thy adjuration. Well should we know our living flame Of Fellowship can sear The grasping claws of Care, Throttle his impious screams And send his cowering carcass From this Grove. Begone, detested Care, begone! Once more we banish thee! Let the all potent spirit of this lamp By its cleansing and ambient fire Encircle the mystic scene Hail Fellowship; begone Dull Care! Once again Midsummer sets us free!
• From PROPOSED REMARKS BY WILLIAM H. WEBSTER DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AT THE BOHEMIAN GROVE LAKESIDE TALK JULY 22, 1988, CIA.gov Reading Room: THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I’VE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TELL YOU ABOUT SOME OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES AT THE CIA, AND THERE IS A CERTAIN IRONY IN THIS FOR ME. AT THE FBI. I SPENT A LOT OF TIME TELLING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WHAT THE FBI WAS ALL ABOUT WAS LAW ENFORCEMENT. NOT SPYING. NOW. I FIND MYSELF SPEAKING TO GROUPS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY REVERSING ALL OF THAT — ASSURING AUDIENCES THAT AT THE CIA WE ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. BUT AS FASCINATED AS AMERICANS ARE BY SPYING. THEY ARE OFTEN SKEPTICAL–AS WELLAND WANT TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE HARSHER ASPECTS OF INTELLIGENCE. MY GOOD FRIEND, GENERAL VERNON WALTERS. FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE CIA AND NOW OUR AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, DESCRIBES THE VIEW MANY HAVE OF THE WHOLE INTELLIGENCE BUSINESS: “AMERICANS.” HE OBSERVED, “HAVE ALWAYS HAD AN AMBIVALENT ATTITUDE TOWARD INTELLIGENCE. WHEN THEY FEEL THREATENED. THEY WANT A LOT OF IT, AND WHEN THEY DON’T. THEY TEND TO REGARD THE WHOLE THING AS SOMEWHAT IMMORAL.” BUT THROUGH TIMELY INTELLIGENCE COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS, THE AGENCY HAS PROVIDED ADVANCE WARNING OF WEAPONS AND WEAPONS SYSTEMS ACQUIRED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. FOR EXAMPLE, WE GAVE ADVANCE WARNING OF THE MOST RECENT IRAQI OFFENSIVES IN THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR, CORRECTLY ANALYZING THE INCREASED RELIANCE ON CHEMICAL WEAPONS. OF PARTICULAR CONCERN JUST NOW IS THE SITUATION IN THE PERSIAN GULF — A SITUATION MADE EVEN MORE VOLATILE BY THE RECENT INCIDENT INVOLVING THE IRANIAN AIRBUS. WE ARE NOW — AND HAVE BEEN PROVIDING DAILY TACTICAL INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT TO NAVAL FORCES OPERATING WITH THE U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND. OUR SUPPORT HAS INCLUDED REPORTS ON IRANIAN ANTISHIP CRUISE MISSILE SITES, NAVAL BASES. AIRFIELDS. AND COASTAL DEFENSE INSTALLATIONS. WE HAVE HAD A NUMBER OF MAJOR SUCCESSES THIS YEAR [the following page redacted] WE WILL BE MONITORING AND REPORTING ON THE SOVIET WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN AND ITS EFFECTS ON THAT COUNTRY. WE WILL ALSO ВЕ PROVIDING INSIGHT INTO WHAT GORBACHEV’S EMPHASIS ON “NEW THINKING” IMPLIES FOR HIS OWN COUNTRY AND FOR THE WORLD. [paragraph redacted] AMONG THE INCREASINGLY INTRICATE ARSENALS ACROSS THE WORLD.. INTELLIGENCE IS AN. ESSENTIAL WEAPON. PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT. BUT IT IS, BEING SECRET, THE MOST DANGEROUS. SAFEGUARDS TO PREVENT ITS ABUSE MUST BE DEVISED, REVISED. AND RIGIDLY APPLIED. BUT AS IN ALL ENTERPRISE. THE CHARACTER AND WISDOM OF THOSE TO WHOM IT IS ENTRUSTED WILL BE DECISIVE.
• From Inside Bohemian Grove, Alex Jones, 2000: I personally am a Christian but even an atheist should be concerned about the information we’re about to bring forth. People travel to Bohemian Grove to engage in bizarre ancient Canaanite luciferian Babylon mystery religion ceremonies–at least that was the rumors. And so I went to the library and got on the internet and saw many of the mainstream news articles admitting that world leaders do indeed go there and they fly into San Francisco uh and other surrounding cities and drive out into the rural uh hills and mountains of Northern California and that these stories have been coming out that they worship some 45ft Stone owl God and then I began to read some of the documentation on this Moloch character of the Old Testament mentioned many times in Leviticus that’s in the Bible. Why are world leaders traveling to the middle of nowhere to worship this thing, well I had to check it out for myself. I successfully infiltrated through the Secret Service uh through the guards through the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Department we were inside 4 hours and I hope that our hidden cameras uh can give you at least a small piece of what I witnessed. To have world leaders engaging in this type of sickening behavior just shocks the very foundations of what Americans believe their leaders to be, and then to have it intimately connected with World Governmen–it doesn’t make a lot of sense until you research history, all throughout history spanning back into the midst of the beginnings of civilization we see world leaders uh from the empires of old from the Aztec Kings and priest uh to Babylonian leaders to ancient Rome engaging in Twisted Behavior. Could it be that when you have all the power and all the women and all the money and all the land and all the art you have to do something new you have to go against the basic grain of humanity you have to get off in a sick way; that’s what we witnessed in Northern California.
• From Bohemian Grove: Facts & Fictions, Mark Dice, 2016: A staff of several hundred people help run the place during the summer encampment, most of them local high school kids from nearby towns who have no idea the identities of the men they are serving. For almost a hundred years only men and teenage boys were allowed to work inside. But as powerful as Bohemian Grove is, it’s not strong enough to prevent the feminists from crashing their party. In 1978 the club was charged with discrimination by the state Department of Fair Employment & Housing for not hiring female employees. The club fought the charge and in 1981 a judge dismissed the case, but it was only a temporary victory. The judge’s decision was based on the members ‘freedom to associate and included a statement that since the men “urinate in the open without even the use of rudimentary toilet facilities” the presence of women would infringe on the men’s right to privacy. The feminists didn’t give up and continued to pursue the case. Another judge overruled the previous decision and ordered the club to begin hiring women. To be clear, the court didn’t say they had to allow women as members, but it did force them to hire women as employees. The State Civil Rights Act states “all persons within the jurisdiction of California are free and equal, no matter their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, or disability and are entitled to full and equal accommodations.” So how is the Bohemian Grove able to legally discriminate against women? Men’s country clubs and organizations like the Girl Scouts can turn down people of the opposite sex for membership without being sued because these clubs are considered private. It’s called the “private club exemption.” from civil rights legislation. Mercy Frost, an employment attorney, says, “The answer is generally yes, they have the right of freedom of association. So at least for now, membership at the Grove means exclusively rereserved for men. Back in 2008, when Hillary Clinton was running for president, Bill Clinto was speaking that at an event when a Heckler began shouting at him about Bohemian Grove. Bill responded, “The Bohemian Club? That’s where those rich Republicans go and stand naked against redwood trees right? I’ve never been, but you ought to go–you’d get some fresh air.”
• From Late Night with the Devil Is Inspired by a Real-Life Secret Society, Trevor Talley & Benjamin Vieira, Comic Book Resources, 2024: David Dastmalchian plays the host of the fictional late night show Night Owls. Dastmalchian’s character, Jack Delroy, is a member of a secret society, and while the film is fiction, what fans of Late Night with the Devil may or may not be aware of is that the “Culte Du Grove” of the film is based on a real-world private organization. The film explores Delroy’s association with a secret society that promises him everything, telling the story of Jack Delroy’s drive to become the top late-night show. The host is failing at this goal. The film goes on to say that The Grove was established in the 1800s, has politicians and major businessmen among its members and that it’s known for its arcane rituals and for making and breaking careers. The Grove visited by Jack Delroy parallels the very real Bohemian Grove, where the Bohemian Club of San Francisco holds its yearly meeting, founded in 1872, back when the American West was still considered wild. In Late Night with the Devil a person in a robe drinks from a chalice in front of a person in an owl suit and other people in robes. The owl statue in Late Night with the Devil is very similar to that of Bohemian Grove. While many accounts of the real Grove say that the event is mostly silly machismo, with a heavy focus on getting hammered and performing jokey or overserious songs and plays, there is also a creepy side to the goings-on, including paintings of naked women and many symbols representing the demand for secrecy, often repeating the motto “Weaving Spiders Come Not Here.” Though it was left out of the Oppenheimer biopic, the Manhattan Project met at the Grove during the 1942 event, including Oppenheimer, Ernest Lawrence and members of the S-1 Executive Committee. It is said that this meeting led directly to the creation of the atomic bomb, something Bohemian Club members hold as a point of pride but which has caused critics much concern that such a world-shaking thing could happen at a private men’s club with no oversight. https://www.cbr.com/late-night-with-the-devil-real-life-inspiration-is-horrifying/ 
•  

The post Episode 220: Satanists Expose Bohemian Grove appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

We’re getting re-animated, as the Lightbringer visits the Land of the Rising Sun and Dr. John Skutlin draws us into the world of Satanic anime.

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• (Watch this space, we’ll be right back.)

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The post Episode 148 – Satanic Anime appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

Supermarket tabloids and scandalized suburbanites across America agree: Satanic cults are behind some of America’s most devilish crimes. But what’s the truth: Do Satanists ever really commit the kinds of ritualistic crimes we’re always taking the heat for, or is this another case of myth-taken identity?

SHOW LINKS

• Satanic Bay Area: Satanic Sinema List
• Zombie Grrlz Patreon
• Patheos: Idaho Pub Faces Backlash
• National Criminal Justice Reference Service: Investigator’s Guide to Allegations of Ritual Child Abuse
• Clark County Prosecutor: Sean Sellers
• YouTube: The Infamous Geraldo Special
• YouTube: Law Enforcement Guide To Satanic Cults (fucking nuts)
• Unresolved: John Doe 60
• SF Weekly: Case Study: Clifford St. Joseph
• Sydney Morning Herald: Night Stalker Obituary
• A&E TV: Childhood To Blame For Night Stalker?
• Viral Nova: Questionnaire For Ramirez
• Atlas Obscura: Ritual Sacrifice & Son of Sam
• NBC News: Did Son of Sam Act Alone?
• Pacific Standard: The Conviction of Things Not Seen

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The post Episode 88 – True Crime & Satanic Panic appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey died in 1997, but that would not quite be the last we heard from him! The following year saw the publication of Satan Speaks!, a collection of LaVeyssays that had not previously appeared in book form, now comprising his final word on things! It’s been a long time since we revived any of old Anton’s perspectives on this show, but we’re ready to listen as Satan Speaks!… regardless of what comes out of his mouth!

(Okay, we’re not THAT excited about this book, but we wanted to fit LaVey’s punctuation style…!)

SHOW LINKS

• BMA Audio Drama! In Gods We Trust!
• Daily Baphirmations, TikTok!
• The Death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg Pushed Me To Join the Satanic Temple!
• LaVey Obituary!
• Church of Satan Goes To Hell!
• Satan’s Den In Disrepair! 
• Satan Speaks! Feral House!

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The post Episode 81 – Satan Speaks! appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

It’s a very special video episode of Black Mass Appeal, the podcast that brings Modern Satanism to the masses! In this episode, we celebrate the third anniversary of the podcast with something different: a trivia game! Simone Lasher runs three rounds of Satanic trivia, as cohosts Daniel Walker and Tabitha Slander take on teams of listener contestants.

Praise, condemnation, questions, and your team’s answers can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.

TRIVIA QUESTIONS!

(Scroll down for answers at the bottom of the page.)

ROUND ONE: SATAN

1. In Dante’s Inferno, who was Satan munching on in the icy Ninth Circle? (Three points)
2. In the book of Revelation, how many heads does the “the beast from the sea” have? How many crowns? (Two points)
3. Most folks know the “number of the beast” in Revelation is 666. What’s the alternative number that is sometimes given as the “number of the beast”? What person is this number thought to represent? (Two points)
4. In the Book of Job, God issued two conditions before allowing Satan to fuck with Job. What were they, in order? (Two points)
5. In Paradise Lost, Book 1, Satan is the first character to speak. Who answers him (and is the second character to speak)? (One point)
6. Embarrassingly few women have played the devil in film. Name one. (One point)
7. A mosaic in the Basilica of Sant’Apollinare Nuovo in Ravenna, Italy, is thought to be the first depiction of Satan in art. What’s unusual about this Satan? (One point)
8. How many times is the name “Lucifer” mentioned in the Bible? (One point)
9. Name the actor who played Black Phillip (in human form) in the movie The Witch. (One point)
10. Name the goat who played Black Phillip (in goat form) in the movie The Witch. (One point)

ROUND TWO: SATANISM

1. Name Anton LaVey’s three children. (Three points)
2. TST’s Baphomet statue was designed for installation at what state capitol… and was later used at a protest at what other state capitol? (Two points)
3. In 1975, Michael Aquino left the Church of Satan and performed a ritual where Satan revealed to Aquino his true name. What was it? (One point)
4. The United Aspects of Satan follows the “Baphomet Principle.” What is it? (One point)
5. What sect of Satanism, founded in 2009, is known for their “11 Neoteric Guidelines”? (One point)
6. What is the sixth tenet of the Satanic Temple? (One point)
7. Jex Blackmore, former spokesperson for the Satanic Temple, is now an independent activist and artist. What was the name of her 2019 art exhibit in Chicago? (One point)
8. The United Aspects of Satan’s holidays are feasts celebrating certain “aspects” of Satan. The feast that aligns with the winter solstice in December is the feast of whom? (One point)
9. What was the last book written by Anton LaVey, which was released the year following his death? (One point)
10. Why does the Order of Nine Angles suck? (One point)

ROUND THREE: BLACK MASS APPEAL

1. One of the events leading up to the formation of Black Mass Appeal was Simone writing an email about Satanism — and having it read on-air — to what other major podcast? (One point)
2. Apple recently changed the name of its podcasts app, leading to great confusion when trying to read the reviews. What was the original name of the app, and its new name? (Two points)
3. In 2019, BMA guest John Romero (Episode 46) released a “new episode” (or “megawad”) of his classic video game Doom. What was the title of this new episode? (One point)
4. Name another podcast that the BMA hosts have appeared on. (One point)
5. Former BMA guest, director Penny Lane (Episode 45), has 12 documentary directing credits. Name one of her films OTHER than “Hail Satan?” (One point)
6. Give the first names of the two primary members of the band Twin Temple (who were guests on Episode 43). (Two points)
7. Who has been on Black Mass Appeal the most as a guest? (One point)
8. Members of what Michigan-based Satanic group appeared on episode 52 to share their experience going to a Bob Larson exorcism? (One point)
9. What day of the week do new episodes of BMA drop? (One point)
10. What’s the country that was once inexplicably left in a show sheet and sends the hosts into fits of giggles when mentioned? (One point)

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ANSWERS

ROUND ONE: SATAN

1. In Dante’s Inferno, who was Satan munching on in the icy Ninth Circle? (Three points) Judas Iscariot, Marcus Junius Brutus, and Gaius Cassius Longinus.
2. In the book of Revelation, how many heads does the “the beast from the sea” have? How many crowns? (Two points) 7 heads, 10 crowns.
3. Most folks know the “number of the beast” in Revelation is 666. What’s the alternative number that is sometimes given as the “number of the beast”? What person is this number thought to represent? (Two points) 616, Emperor Nero.
4. In the Book of Job, God issued two conditions before allowing Satan to fuck with Job. What were they, in order? (Two points) 1. You cannot harm him physically. 2. You can harm him physically, but you can’t kill him.
5. In Paradise Lost, Book 1, Satan is the first character to speak. Who answers him (and is the second character to speak)? (One point) Beelzebub
6. Embarrassingly few women have played the devil in film. Name one. (One point) Elizabeth Hurley, Bedazzled; Jennifer Love Hewitt, Shortcut to Happiness; Rosalinda Celentano, The Passion of the Christ; Angelica Huston, Seraphim Falls. Will accept Emmanuelle Seigner (as The Girl), The Ninth Gate.
7. A mosaic in the Basilica of Sant’Apollinare Nuovo in Ravenna, Italy, is thought to be the first depiction of Satan in art. What’s unusual about this Satan? (One point) He’s wearing blue (not the stereotypical red).
8. How many times is the name “Lucifer” mentioned in the Bible? (One point) Once.
9. Name the actor who played Black Phillip (in human form). (One point) Daniel Wahab Chaudhry.
10. Name the goat who played Black Phillip (in goat form). (One point) Charlie.

ROUND TWO: SATANISM

1. Name Anton LaVey’s three children. (Three points) Zeena, Karla, and Satan Xerxes.
2. TST’s Baphomet statue was designed for installation at what state capitol… and was later used at a protest at what other state capitol? (Two points) Oklahoma City and Little Rock, AR.
3. In 1975, Michael Aquino left the Church of Satan and performed a ritual where Satan revealed to Aquino his true name. What was it? (One point) Set.
4. The United Aspects of Satan follows the “Baphomet Principle.” What is it? (One point) Self-motivation balanced with compassion and reason, in all things.
5. What sect of Satanism, founded in 2009, is known for their “11 Neoteric Guidelines”? (One point) Church of Rational Satanism.
6. What is the sixth tenet of the Satanic Temple? (One point) “People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.”
7. Jex Blackmore, former spokesperson for the Satanic Temple, is now an independent activist and artist. What was the name of her 2019 art exhibit in Chicago? (One point) Sex Militant.
8. The United Aspects of Satan’s holidays are feasts celebrating certain “aspects” of Satan. The feast that aligns with the winter solstice in December is the feast of whom? (One point) The Feast of Ba’al.
9. What was the last book written by Anton LaVey, which was released the year following his death? (One point) Satan Speaks! (I’ll begrudgingly accept Letters from the Devil, 2010.)
10. Why does the Order of Nine Angles suck? (One point) Because they’re fucking Nazis that’s why.

ROUND THREE: BLACK MASS APPEAL

1. One of the events leading up to the formation of Black Mass Appeal was Simone writing an email about Satanism — and having it read on-air — to what other major podcast? (One point) My Favorite Murder.
2. Apple recently changed the name of its podcasts app, leading to great confusion when trying to read the reviews. What was the original name of the app, and its new name? (Two points) iTunes, Apple Podcasts.
3. In 2019, BMA guest John Romero (Episode 46) released a “new episode” (or “megawad”) of his classic video game Doom. What was the title of this new episode? (One point) Sigil.
4. Name another podcast that the BMA hosts have appeared on. (One point) Bizarre States, Naked Diner, Sacred Tension, Let’s Be Omnist.
5. Former BMA guest, director Penny Lane (Episode 45), has 12 documentary directing credits. Name one of her films OTHER than “Hail Satan?” (One point)
   1. Nellie Bly Makes the News (Documentary short)
   2. Hail Satan? (Documentary)
   3. The Pain of Others (Documentary)
   4. Normal Appearances (Short)
   5. Just Add Water: The Story of the Amazing Live Sea-Monkeys (Documentary short)
   6. Nuts! (Documentary)
   7. Our Nixon (Documentary)
   8. The Voyagers (Documentary short)
   9. The Commoners (Documentary short)
   10. Sittin’ on a Million (Documentary short) (co-director)
   11. The Abortion Diaries (Documentary short)
   12. We Are the Littletons: A True Story (Documentary short)
6. Give the first names of the two primary members of the band Twin Temple (who were guests on Episode 43). (Two points) Alexandra and Zachary James.
7. Who has been on Black Mass Appeal the most as a guest? (One point) Brigid Breed, SBA member. (Episodes 6, 7, 10, and 16). Followed by Detryck Von Doom (3 shows).
8. Members of what Michigan-based Satanic group appeared on episode 52 to share their experience going to a Bob Larson exorcism? (One point) Satanhaus.
9. What day of the week do new episodes of BMA drop? (One point) Tuesday.
10. What’s the country that was once inexplicably left in a show sheet and sends the hosts into fits of giggles when mentioned? (One point) Greece.

The post Episode 78 – Third BMAnniversary Video Show appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

It’s another day in Paradise, as we finally tackle the most influential Satanic literary classic of them all. Four hundred years ago, English poet John Milton redefined our ideas about who Satan is and what his struggle means with “Paradise Lost”…although he probably didn’t mean to. Helping us look at Milton’s Satanic epic up close, with a close reading of the most influential Satanic rhetoric in Paradise Lost, we are joined by Bella from the Satanic Bookroom.

Praise, condemnation, questions, and cherubs making frowny faces can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.

SHOW LINKS

• The Daily Beast: Trump’s New Favorite COVID Doctor Believes in Alien DNA, Demon Sperm, and Hydroxychloroquine
• From Dartmouth’s John Milton Reading Room, the full text of Paradise Lost
• Paradise Lost Audiobook
• John Milton, American Academy of Poets
• Scott Derrickson’s “Paradise Lost” Adaptation

GET IN TOUCH WITH BLACK MASS APPEAL

• Facebook
• Twitter
• Instagram
• Patreon
• Tabitha Slander’s Instagram
• Discord server
• Leave a voicemail any time! Just call 1 (415) 579-2055.

SATANIC BAY AREA

• Website
• Facebook
• Twitter (as @SatanicSF)
• Instagram
• Sign up for Satanic Bay Area’s newsletter
• Coffee Hour is the third Thursday of every month from 6 – 8 pm at Wicked Grounds in San Francisco

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Simone 0:04
Welcome to Black Mass Appeal, a podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on Black Mass Appeal, it’s another day in paradise as we finally tackled the most influential satanic literary classic of them all. And in the news, we’re honestly not sure what this doctor ordered and, at home, Satanic Bay Area is considering going far afield. Joining me today I’ve got Daniel.

Daniel 0:29
Hi, my name is Daniel. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area and I’m a member of the Satanic Temple, and I for one am amazed to discover that this episode is in fact not about Simone pining for the tiki bars to reopen.

Simone 0:42
*sighs* Well, my favorite tiki bar is doing takeout cocktails, so, I’m doing okay on that front but yeah, I miss it. *sighs again* Hopefully joining me at a tiki bar sometime in the future is Tabitha.

Tabitha 0:59
Hey, this is Tabitha. I’m an administrator for a Satanic Bay Area and I actually lost my paradise on the bus. Do-where can I call to see if somebody found it and turned it in? *Simone laughs*

Simone 1:10
Joining us later in the show will be Bella from the Satanic Bookroom. And until then, you’ve got me. My name is Simone. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area. And, you know, if you go to the Paradise Lost and Found, there’s lots of, like, chargers there for your phone. A couple of knickknacks, so-

Tabitha 1:29
Left socks.

Simone 1:30
Yeah. Black Mass Appeal is a product of Satanic Bay Area and it is not associated with any other satanic groups. This is a podcast for Satanists is to discuss modern Satanism, its history, left-leaning political activism, and how Satanism relates to current events in pop culture. Or for people who want to learn more about modern Satanism, whether you’re a newbie or already involved in satanic groups. And speaking of satanic groups, what has Satanic Bay Area been planning, I guess?

Daniel 1:59
Well, we do have a couple of things to go down the slate here. One thing that I want to mention, ordinarily, this is the time of the year when we would be planning our satanic summer field trip, for, obvious reasons, that has run into some problems this year. We- some of us have been considering, however, a trip to the San Francisco Zoo, which has recently reopened. That seems like a good trip because we love animals, it’s a Satan thing. Also, because some of the animals down there are having some- there, their welfare is in danger because the zoo was having trouble covering its cost, the costs of taking care of them, so a little bit of business their way couldn’t possibly hurt. At the same time, you can well imagine we are a little bit anxious about the idea of doing any kind of gathering right now, even though the plan that we have follows all of the city’s guidelines, and all the zoo guidelines as well. I think that we’re going to try to organize this, we’ll see how it goes. I only bring this up for our listeners now to point out that, you know, there are rules, and we’re sticking to them, and we’re doing everything we’re supposed to do to take care of everybody, but at the same time, we still have some anxiety and I think that’s not only normal right now, but healthy right now. And if you yourself are grappling with that, to those contradictions, too, you are not alone, so we’re all in this together, slash, safely far apart.

Tabitha 3:18
We originally wanted to go to the Oakland Zoo, but they, they’re not allowing groups more than- I think you can only go with your household. And, which is a shame because they have, like, giant fruit bats there and they’re very cute. But at the same token, like, I definitely respect what they’re trying to do. I can’t wait for this to be over. *sighs*

Daniel 3:40
I mean, we can go see the giant fruit bats on our own about- I think we’ll definitely do that.

Tabitha 3:45
Yeah.

Daniel 3:45
But we can’t do it and, like, a formal group expedition. Indi-we’ll have to do individual bat pilgrimages.

Simone 3:52
Yeah, having you know, like 20 Satanists all show up at the same time, all of us looking like Satanists dressed in all black, I think they’re gonna quickly figure out that we all just didn’t happen to randomly show up on the same day.

Tabitha 4:07
Right.

Daniel 4:08
To when we all go to the goat enclosure first is probably going to give the game away. *laughter*

Simone 4:13
Well, two other things that we have coming up. First, we are working on a project, an audio project. We are looking for Spanish speakers. Must be fluent in Spanish and capable of discussing Satan-y things in Spanish. So if you’re so inclined, please get in contact with us, you know the email address, so there’s one. Then, we’re also looking for viewer participants. We have our anniversary show coming up and we’re going to make a little game out of it, so if you want to join us for [an] audio or zoom, little situation, that we can explain in more detail later, get in contact with us. So, we do have some fun stuff coming up.

Daniel 5:01
Man, can you believe we’ve been doing this for three years now?

Simone 5:03
No, no, I don’t. It can’t. I don’t-

Daniel 5:06
Just like last year, it seems like both way less time and way more time than that.

Tabitha 5:11
*laughs* Yes, yes. And yes.

Simone 5:14
Now, for the old school way of having a little listener participation, we have our apple podcast reviews! So, our first review comes from SpiderMike89, who says “absolutely amazing! I started with Episode One, as I’m new to Satanism, and the title intrigued me. In just a few short weeks, I’m up to Episode 40. Yes, I have a lot of time in my hands as a security patrol officer. I sent you an email with a short story that I hope you can share if it’s not too long because Episode 39 had some stories that I can relate to. I’ll have to keep listening to, one day, hear this review on the podcast, keep up your unholy work!” Well, we always have the possibility of repeating, you know, topics, revisiting topics, especially the ones that were really viewer-driven. People who sent in their letters about their experiences. It’s always good to hear from new perspectives. And, you know, we have so many topics to talk about, but we never quite finished talking about any one of them, so definitely could be in the cards.

Daniel 6:18
I just want to offer an extra personal message to SpiderMike right now, so this is it. The day is here. You’re hearing it. Was it everything you dreamed up? Let us know.

Tabitha 6:28
Yeah. How long did it take for you to get to it? Was it like, a couple more weeks? Or, you know, write us another review! That’s it, no, I’m just kidding. *laughter*

Daniel 6:39
But thank you very much; we love having you.

Simone 6:41
Okay, our next one is KrishaVak [?], who says, “I’m essential, and so is this podcast. In these difficult and confusing times, it only makes sense to have something that is not only a great distraction, but an insightful and entertaining commentary as well. The crew at BMA are not only funny, but educational. Thank you for all that you are doing, hail yourselves, and Hail Satan!” Well, hail you! I mean, you don’t say what your profession is, but essential workers are exactly that, essential, and they do not get thanked enough or recognized enough. So, please accept this, you know, attempt at saying thank you.

Tabitha 7:22
*sad voice* I’ve never been essential before. *laughs*

Simone 7:27
I think Daniel would disagree.

Tabitha 7:30
*squeaks*

Simone 7:31
And he says nothing. *Tabitha laughs*

Daniel 7:34
Well, what else is there to say? *laughter*

Tabitha 7:36
Thank you.

Daniel 7:38
Sometimes I’m not essential, so I keep to myself in those cases.

Tabitha 7:42
No, mmm, that’s a lie.

Simone 7:44
I’m just a bunch of essential oils in human form. *laughter*

Tabitha 7:50
Thank you.

Simone 7:50
I’m very squishy, very squishy inside and when I sit, I leave a sheen, like Soul Glow, in Coming to America.

Tabitha 7:52
Eww…

Simone 7:58
Anyway, moving on, our last review here is from Dude.50 who says, “Just what I was missing-“

Daniel 8:05
Actually, I want to point out this is Dude-point-50. I think, I think that’s a measurement.

Simone 8:10
Some-maybe caliber? 50 caliber dude? *laughter*

Tabitha 8:15
Yes.

Simone 8:16
So Dude says, “I’m an atheist, and I practice Secular Buddhism, but I enjoy exploring other’s views and I’ve always felt that there was a part missing from my beliefs slash lack thereof. I’m glad that in my exploration, I found your podcast. While I’d heard of TST with the Decalogue case in Arkansas, before this I had not had the courage to explore Satanism further. Now I’m a card-carrying member of TST. As an ICU nurse, I have only told one person because in these Midwest communities gossip spreads like a virus.-“

Tabitha 8:47
Yikes.

Simone 8:48
“-Thank you for being here and producing the podcast. Hail Satan.” Again, hail you for being an ICU nurse on the frontlines!

Tabitha 8:56
Thank you.

Simone 8:57
I mean, again, hail yourself.

Daniel 9:00
Also, great use of the word decalogue.

Simone 9:03
Yeah, that’s, that is a good one.

Tabitha 9:05
Yeah. Ten dollar word.

Simone 9:07
For the Ten Commandments. *Tabitha laughs* Okay, well, the other helpful thing that folks can do to support the show is to contribute to the Patreon. The Patreon is the means by which we, you know, run this whole shindig. It also helps us to donate money to causes that, you know, we feel align with our values. Whether or not they’re Satanic, if they’re doing good works that, you know, work with our values, then we want to help out, we want to support. So for the month of July, we were able to donate to OCCUR, which is a foundation here in Oakland, and they say they “serve as a facilitator and catalyst bringing together neighborhood residents, merchants, and government to strengthen and stimulate the economic development potential of emerging communities.” They have a lot of different initiatives under their umbrella. One of them is the small black-owned business fund, which is helping folks out during this time that’s very hard on small businesses. And if you’re interested in learning more about OCCUR’s work or want to donate yourself, their website is occurnow.org, and so, we are honored to be able to offer, you know, a little bit of monetary support and we have you guys to thank for it. So, to thank our contributors, we’ve got Krista, then in the Mark of the Mini Beast Club, which is $3.33 per month, we’ve got MountainMurders.

Tabitha 10:42
Mmm…

Daniel 10:43
That sounds like a good podcast, too.

Simone 10:44
Yeah. *Tabitha laughs* And then in the Mark of the Beast Club, we’ve got a Crystal Palladino, Jimmy Nails, Richard Proctor, and Thomas Jacob. And then one more to thank is Mason Woods who is an upgrade!

Daniel 11:01
Yes, he has upgraded far beyond the Mark of the Beast Club member level now. He’s on to multiple beasts. I also want to point out that he has, in the past, upgraded to contribute more and then sometimes dial that back a little bit less, but then bumped it up again, so we mentioned him on the show a lot so if you ever, like, want multiple shout outs, he’s got the formula down. He’s figured it out.

Tabitha 11:26
Is he in the super secret, like, Illuminati tier of the Patreon? *laughs*

Daniel 11:33
*stage whispers* Don’t talk about super secret Illuminati tier!

Tabitha 11:36
Oh shit, sorry! *fake coughs* I mean, Ba-luminati. *laughter*

Simone 11:43
it’s just, it’s the Illuminati but with, like, a little mustache on it. *laugher* Would it be, like for Wario, like, Wa-luminati? *laugher*

Tabitha 11:52
*laughing* Wa-luminati!

Daniel 11:55
Oh, good that covered our tracks expertly! *laughter*

Simone 11:59
Okay, *Luigi voice* it’sa me, Wa-luminati! *Tabitha laughs*

Daniel 12:07
*chuckling* I hope [unitelligible] after that.

Simone 12:09
Okay, let’s go ahead, take a break and we’ll come back with the news!

Black Mass Appeal 12:30
*Interlude music*

NEWS

Tabitha 12:30
*old-timey breaking news doots*

Simone 12:30
Those doots mean time for the news! It’s right on schedule! So, today we are reading from the Daily Beast: “The President is pushing the Coronavirus theories of a Houston doctor who also says sexual visitations by demons and alien DNA are at the root of Americans common health concerns.” *pauses* It’s quite the title. “A Houston Doctor who praises hydroxychloroquine and says that face masks aren’t necessary to stop transmission of the highly contagious Coronavirus has become a star on the right-wing internet, garnering 10’s of millions of views on Facebook on Monday alone. Donald Trump Jr. declared the video of Stella Immanuel, a must-watch.” Ugh, there’s a recommendation. “Before Trump and his supporters embrace Immanuel’s medical expertise, though, they should consider other medical claims Immanuel has made, including those about alien DNA and the physical effects of having sex with witches and demons in your dreams. Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister-” Mmm.. “-has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She’s often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches. She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious.” If only. “And despite appearing in Washington DC to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part, not by humans, but by reptilians and other aliens. Immanuel gave her viral speech on the steps of the Supreme Court at the White Coat Summit, a gathering of a handful of doctors who call themselves America’s frontline doctors and dispute the medical consensus on the novel Coronavirus. Toward the end of Immanuel’s speech, the event’s organizer and other participants can be seen trying to get her away from the microphone. *laughs* But footage of the speech captured by Breitbart was a hit online, becoming a top video on Facebook. Both Facebook and Twitter eventually deleted videos of Immanuel’s speech from their sites citing rules against COVID-19 disinformation. The deletion set off yet another round of complaints by conservatives of bias at the social media platforms. Immanuel responded in her own way, declaring that Jesus Christ would destroy Facebook servers if her videos weren’t restored on the platform. In her sermons, Immanuel offers a sort of demonology of Nephilim, the biblical characters she claims exist as demonic spirits and lust after dream sex with humans causing all manner of real health problems and financial ruin. Immanuel claims real-life ailments such as fibroid tumors and cysts stem from the demonic sperm after demon dream sex, an activity she claims affects many women. ‘They turn into a woman and then they sleep with a man and collect his sperm,’ Immanuel said in her sermon, ‘then they turn into the man and they sleep with a man and deposit the sperm and reproduce more of themselves.’ *sighs* According to Immanuel, people can tell if they have taken a demonic spirit husband or spirit wife if they have a sex dream about someone they know or a celebrity, wake up aroused, and stop getting along with their real-world spouse, lose money or generally experience any hardship. In a 2015 sermon that laid out a supposed Illuminati plan hatched by a witch to destroy the world using abortion, gay marriage in children’s toys, among other things. Immanuel claimed that DNA from space aliens is currently being used in medicine. Immanuel argues that a wide variety of toys, books, and TV shows from Pokemon, which she declares Eastern demons, to Harry Potter and the Disney Channel shows Wizards of Waverly Place and That’s So Raven were all a part of a scheme to introduce children to spirits and witches. Immanuel warned that the Disney Channel show Hannah Montana was a gateway to evil because its character had an alter ego. She has claimed that schools teach children to meditate so that they can meet with demons. In the sermon, Immanuel preserves special vitriol for the magic eight ball, *Daniel laughs* a toy that can be shaken up to reveal any answer. Immanuel claims that the otherwise innocuous magic eight ball was in fact a scheme to get children used to witchcraft. ‘The eight ball was a psychic,’ she said. She didn’t bring up this allegation publicly in Washington, but she has claimed that the American government is run in part by non-human reptilians. ‘There are people that are ruling this nation that are not even human,’ Immanuel said in her 2015 Illuminati sermon, before launching into a conversation she had with a reptilian spirit she described as half-human, half ET.” *pauses* Wow, that’s a lot.

Tabitha 13:22
So what did she gettin’ her show? *Simone laughs* When is she going on, what, Fox News?

Simone 17:46
Fuck a show, she’s gettin’, she’s getting a cabinet position.

Tabitha 17:49
*laughs* Yeah.

Simone 17:51
Meet your new Surgeon General!

Tabitha 17:53
Uhh, no, Simoneee! *laughs*

Simone 17:57
Hey, like, that’s a fucked up joke, but you know it’s been considered.

Tabitha 18:02
*groaning* It’s true! *Simone laughs* That was a lot. I hate it here. *groans again*

Daniel 18:11
Oh, where to start? First of all, this is actually- those are just selections from a very long piece by Will Sommer, who’s a great writer and really funny to follow on Twitter. Well, that stinks. If you’re curious, Immanuel herself tweeted Will’s story, saying that it very accurately conveyed the substance of her sermons, so-

Simone 18:21
Yikes!

Daniel 18:28
-there’s that. If you’re wondering where she got that weird bit about how the demons turn into women to sleep with men to get sperm to then turn into men to impregnate women with, I-this is a very old belief. I actually believe that straight out of the Malleus Maleficarum, the 16th-century German inquisitors manual and it was to answer the question of how it is possible for demons to- demons don’t have bodies, so therefore how could they possibly impregnate women? That is, of course, theology of the time, insisted that they could and of course, the answer was, well, they must get it from, from a man instead because naturally. So, I don’t know what her source was, but that is *a* source for that belief. Uh, geez, where else, where, where do you even go with this one. You know what? This perfectly encapsulates a problem that I brought up on the show so many times, and that I brought up recently when we were talking to Steven Bradford Long on sacred tension is, you know, people have these religious beliefs that to us seem bizarre and even irrational. But at the same time, there’s a weird sort of separation of powers, where, despite believing things that I think are crazy, these people still managed to be rational and reasonable about most other things. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re doctors, they’re lawyers, they’re bus drivers. They do these jobs in a way that I don’t have to worry about them. Somehow they keep these things separate. I don’t know how, it doesn’t make sense to me, but that seems to be the way the world works. And that separation is one of the things that allows a person like me to respect their beliefs, even if I think they’re weird or nuts. Here’s where that line has been crossed! This is an example of why it is so critical for people to continue to maintain that separation because once you start stepping over that, it’s like, I can’t. I can’t. This is, this is where, like, you know, I try to be nice and try to be respectful, even when I have mixed feelings about that expectation, but it’s, like, here’s the-this is it, this is it. If this is not too far, what is, you know? Don’t go to this doctor, okay? *laughter* She’s a pediatrician? Don’t take your kids. Okay?

Simone 20:49
What- yeah, what is she prescribing for these children?

Daniel 20:52
That’s what I’m saying! I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s- *groans*

Tabitha 20:58
I’m just sad. I’m sad that these people are getting platformed. I’m sad that, that this is where we are right now.

Simone 21:07
How did I get here?

Tabitha 21:09
Yeah.

Simone 21:09
I keep thinking about that Talking Heads line more and more.

Daniel 21:13
But here’s what I’m trying to get at in the, the enormity of, the enormity of this situation crushed my spirit for a second there, but I’m fine now. These beliefs are not necessarily that unusual in the circles that somebody like her travels in. The only difference is, do people let them affect their politics and their work? A lot of people do not. And when they do, that’s what, like, that, that’s the red, that’s the red line. That’s the hard red line. How people stay on one side of the line, I don’t know, but most people seem to be able to do it. So, it’s, it’s very strange to consider that there are a lot of people who kind of live in two worlds, where on the one hand they believe these things, but on the other hand, they let a different set of standards influence their behavior in the most important things. I’m glad they’re able to do that. I don’t quite get hows so *groans* there we have it. *laughter* Actually, one more thing. Tabitha pointed out on Twitter recently that we’ve got the right to fuck demons in our sleep if we want to. *Simone laughs*

Tabitha 22:13
Yes. Look, I am a, an adult. and if I want to fuck a demon? Who’s gonna fucking stop me? You can’t stop me. That’s what I do in my bedroom. I can do whatever the fuck I want. I can do it at the Walmart-

Simone 22:26
As long as it’s, you know, consenting Tabitha and consenting demon, I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Tabitha 22:31
Yeah, I mean, it’s funny when I wrote that Twitter thing, you know, I was trying to kind of evoke the, like, anti-maskers. But really, like, I was just, like, immediately into it, so I don’t know if that- *laughter* -if maybe I failed in, in what I was trying to accomplish, but I don’t know.

Simone 22:46
You convinced yourself.

Tabitha 22:47
Yeah.

Daniel 22:47
That was the thing, like, when you read that part where she says ‘this is a problem that affects many women,’ I can imagine a lot of women read that say, ‘tell me more…’

Simone 22:54
*laughs* All right, well, let’s go ahead. We’ll take a break. And we’ll come back with our main topic.

Black Mass Appeal 23:07
*interlude music*

MAIN TOPIC

Simone 23:24
400 years ago, English poet John Milton redefined our ideas about who Satan is and what his struggle means, even if that’s probably really not what he meant to do. Helping us look at Milton’s Satanic epic up close, with a close reading of the most influential Satanic rhetoric in Paradise Lost, we have Bella from the Satanic Bookroom. Thanks for joining us, Bella!

Bella 23:49
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Simone 23:52
Well, we’re excited to have you. So, for the folks who aren’t familiar, I want you to tell us a little bit more about yourself, your relation to Satanism, and the Satanic Bookroom, and Paradise Lost.

Bella 24:04
All right, well, I first came across Satanism, probably in the 90s and that was through the Satanic Bible and Anton LaVey. I didn’t really start in a serious manner until about 2012, where I was questioning a lot of the things going on around me with Christianity, and my conflict with it with being an atheist, and I decided to look into Satanism. In 2016, I came across the Satanic Temple, which also fostered more thought into it as an organized religion, and therefore decided to call myself a Satanist, which I’ve been ever since. It feels like a spot to be in that will probably be lifelong for me and continue to expand. So I’m a supporter of TST and also spend a lot of independent time exploring and looking at my religion now. I also have a group on Facebook called the Satanic Bookroom that assists with the- discovering the Satanic literature that is the basis of a lot of philosophies for our religion, and includes almost 5000 members from all walks of life- some of them identify as Satanists, and others are just curious in learning about, about Satanism.

Simone 25:26
Now, obviously, since you’re, you know, literature-oriented, when was the first time that you read Paradise Lost?

Bella 25:34
I first was introduced to it in college, which was probably in the 90s. I was trying to remember back as we were having this episode, if we had actually read through the whole thing; it’s quite a long epic. *laughs* So-

Simone 25:48
*laughs* No kidding!

Bella 25:49
Yeah, that’s where I was first introduced to it.

Daniel 25:52
Just to get a plugin, by the way, I believe the current group read for the Satanic Bookroom right now is still Lord Byron’s Kane, which we talked about just two episodes prior, so anybody who thought that sounded intriguing, there’s a good opportunity to get in on the group if it strikes your fancy. I guess anybody who didn’t think that Kane sounded interesting, I really appreciate you coming back for this episode. It shows you’re very open-minded.

Simone 26:17
Yeah, it is. You know, as we discussed on the episode, two episodes ago, about the Romantics, John Milton was not a Romantic, but he really influenced them, so it’s still kind of in that literary vein. So if it’s not your thing, well, you can re-listen to the goat episode. That was a fun episode.

Tabitha 26:35
I do believe that that episode was 75? *laughs* For once, I know which one it is, haha!

Daniel 26:46
Also, on the topic of how long this poem is, I kind of feel like I owe Simone an apology, even though I’m sure she probably does not remember this, because, of course, we’ve talked about doing an episode about this before and I think there was one time when it came up that I said, ‘I don’t know, do you want to do all the reading?’ And later, I realized, that was a really dick question! Like as if, you know, like, like, it sounded like, it seems like a very pompous thing to say. And I’m sure nobody else remembers this conversation, but it’s been bothering me, so sorry about that. That was, that was not a tactful way to feel out a prospect for the program. *chuckles*

Simone 27:20
I don’t remember that. I- thank you for the apology. But, it is, it is quite long. I mean, we’ll, we’ll kind of get into this more, but I mean, it’s ten books, I guess in some versions, it’s 12. It’s a, you know, they use the word epic for ‘epic poem’ for a reason.

Daniel 27:41
Well, I did get a tip- our unfaithful listener HollowHeathen told us- I think it was HollowHeathen- told us that, when she read it, she listened to the audiobook simultaneously and followed along with it, which to me sounded a little weird, but if that helps, great, that’s awesome. And actually, the useful thing about the audiobook is that you will know exactly how long it will take you to read this because *laughter* you can look at the timer, so that’s probably a good mental tool for some people who might feel a little bit intimidated tackling the text. Anybody out there, if anybody else out there has done that, let us know how it worked out for you.

Simone 28:16
Yeah, I was about to say, she’s not the only person I’ve heard who has done that. I know a couple of people who have listened to it on audio, you know, the audiobook. You know, it’s, it’s, if you’re not into that kind of like, sort of, Shakespearean language in terms of reading with the kind of, you know, the older style spellings just to listen to it, and absorb it that way is, also, I mean, it’s a wonderful way to do it.

Bella 28:46
Also, I would point out that the more recent reading I did of Paradise Lost was- it [was] with plain English. *laughs* It’s obviously written in English, so it’s kind of funny that there’s an English version that makes it more plain and my copy has it right next to each other, so you can read some of the more flowery and winding language and then just get it straight in a couple sentences right next to it, and that really helped.

Tabitha 29:14
*laughing* He sat down! Okay? *laughter*

Bella 29:16
Exactly.

Simone 29:17
That’s the kind, that’s the one that I had. That’s the one that I read most recently, and, I do have to admit, though, that the Kindle version that I got, I don’t, I can’t remember, like, who edited it or whatever. But it’s so funny because it’ll actually do, like, a line from the poem in the original text, and then just below it is the ‘quote-unquote translation,’ or the simplification, but it’s real funny to me because, they’ll be like three, like, very dense, you know, sentences and then, like, just one -way- over a simplified English sentence underneath it. It will be this long passage about, you know, ‘Satan and his wings and flying,’ and then the English is, ‘he flew.’ *laughter* Okay. That was helpful. Okay. Anyway, before we get too deep into this, let’s offer some contextualization about John Milton and the circumstances of him writing this thing. Daniel, do you want to take this first one?

Daniel 30:20
For the record, this is the same very brief, one-paragraph bio culled from the Academy of American Poets that we included back on Episode 58, so a little bit of review, but you know, not everybody has heard every episode also, you probably haven’t heard Episode 58 recently, it was a while back. So, “John Milton was born in London in 1607, into a middle-class family. He was educated at Christ’s College, Cambridge.” I always really love that phrase, by the way, because it sounds, It sounds very exasperated. ‘Christtt’s Collegeee.’ *Simone laughs* “-and prepared to enter the clergy after university, however, he abandoned his plans to join the priesthood, and spent the next six years at his father’s country home following a rigorous course of independent study to prepare for a career as a poet.” I don’t know if this is a proper characterization of this, but this kind of makes me think about, you know, when you drop out of school to tour with your band.

Simone 31:12
I’m just thinking about, you know, if you want to have a career as a poet, like, do ya get your LinkedIn set up, you know? The, the career of a poet, when approached in that manner seems, a little- *laughs* I don’t know.

Tabitha 31:28
You bench press books, is what you do.

Simone 31:29
Yeah.

Daniel 31:31
I mean, you’re joking, but actually, yeah, it kind of was a who you know sort of thing in those times. Although bench pressing books, I kind of like that image, too. *laughter* It continues, “during the English Civil War-” This is, there’s a lot of English civil wars. This was the 17th-century one when Parliament cut the king’s head off. “Milton championed the cause of the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell, and wrote a series of pamphlets advocating radical political topics, including the morality of divorce, the freedom of the press, populism, and sanctioned regicide. After the restoration of Charles the Second to the throne in 1660, Milton was arrested as a defender of the Commonwealth, but soon released. He lived the rest of his life in seclusion of the country, completing the blank-verse epic poem Paradise Lost in 1667.” And when I say it’s who you know, I seem to remember from our study of this in college, it really was kind of his friends in high places who admired his poetical work. We got a spring from prison after this because he was pretty deep into the movement there. It also helped at that time, he was an old man and blind and so, kind of feeble, so he had a good, he had a good pity vote for clemency there, as well. It continues, “Paradise Lost chronicles Satan’s temptations of Adam and Eve, and their expulsion from Eden. Since its publication, the work has continually elicited debate regarding its theological themes, political commentary, and its depiction of Satan, who is often viewed as the protagonist of the work.” Often? Is there anybody who does not? I, I-

Simone 32:56
Well, I was actually reading an essay to this effect about how the definitions of protagonists stand, does Satan meet all of them? I wish, I should have just pulled that up, but there are some who argue that God is the protagonist of this work. So-

Daniel 33:12
That’s interesting.

Simone 33:13
-there you have it.

Daniel 33:14
I guess that does make sense in a way although he is a rather remote personage, but then, you know, he’s got-

Simone 33:19
Isn’t he always?

Daniel 33:20
Yeah, he doesn’t have to get out of the house very much. I used to joke of, like, you know, in the old days, like, God was very sociable, he would go hang out with Abraham and with Moses and the prophets and what have you. These days, like, he just stays at home all the time, nobody ever hears from him, his son died a while ago and he seems like he just never really got over it. Very sad story.

Simone 33:41
Well, you know, maybe he tried to appear as a burning bush again, and it got out of hand because it was here in California. *Daniel laughs* Sorry, that’s terrible.

Daniel 33:50
Somebody just hit him with the fire extinguisher like in Dogma, that was the end of it. *laughter*

Simone 33:55
Okay, so now that’s kind of the overview of Milton and the circumstances of his life leading up to this. He, in my reading, one of the things that I thought was interesting is that he was very determined to write an epic poem, and he, I guess, like, kind of toyed with the idea of doing something about King Arthur and, but it was, yeah, towards the later part of his life that he actually kind of went through with it, so. It’s that thing of where you work on your first album for a really, really long time and, and then it’s a hit, and then, you know, do you have anything to follow it up with? But. Anyway, focusing on Paradise Lost, as we mentioned before, this has 10 to 12 books depending on the edition. We’re going to talk about 12, the 12 version. And, so, just to give people context for the more in-depth discussion, we’re gonna whip through these 12 books real fast.

Tabitha 34:59
Okay, so previously on Paradise Lost in Book One, Satan and the rebel angels, cast out of Heaven, awake to find themselves in Hell. Satan and his Lieutenant Beelzebub vowed to continue defying God, and they fashion a plan to spoil Eden for the newly created humanity. Book number two, the fallen angels hold a great council to debate their next course and Satan tells them that he will travel to Earth to execute their plan. Flying to the gates of Hell, he finds him guarded by his daughter, Sin, who sprang from his head at the moment he conceived of disobedience in Heaven, and their incestuous son, Death. Sin unlocks the gates and Satan flies out into the realm of Chaos, where all of the strange things that God neglected to use to create the universe still reign. And he persuades the Lord of Chaos to direct him towards the world. Book number three, back in Heaven, God in his son, who is not yet called Jesus, having not yet been born as a man on Earth, discuss what’s happening. Book Three is honestly pretty boring. And if you skip it, you’re not missing much. But it does include one intriguing bit. God knows Satan’s plan, and is going to let it happen, in part because if he never gives humans the opportunity to disobey, then they will, in effect, be slaves.

Simone 36:21
Bella, do you want to take the next three?

Bella 36:23
Yeah, I’ll take the next three. All right, so let’s continue with Book Four. Satan, finding himself in Eden, is charmed by the beauty of the world, but also tortured by regret, doubt, and uncertainty. Despite this emotional turmoil, he vows to press on with his plan and spies Eve and Adam at work. That night, he creeps into their sleeping place, and whispers promises into Eve’s ear, but some of God’s angels discover him and drive him away. Book Five, the angel Raphael visits Eve and Adam and warns them that an enemy is near. Well, he actually just warns Adam because Eve shouldn’t worry about big stuff like that with her womanly mind. Raphael describes how war broke out in Heaven after some of the angels refused to bow God’s new son, and Satan rallied them to his side. Book number six, the rebel angels and the loyalists meet in battle, which is pretty futile since angels can’t die. Satan even invents cannons to overwhelm his foes, but cannot turn the tide. Finally, on the third day of war, God’s son leads the charge, and the rebels are cast down.

Simone 37:47
All right, well, I’ll take this next bit here. So, previously on Books Seven and Eight, Raphael relates the creation of the world, the creation of Adam, and all the other living creatures, and, last of all, Eve. Moving on to Book Nine, despite the warnings, Eve and Adam work in separate parts of the garden the next day. Satan inhabits the body of the serpent and approaches Eve, and, amazed to see an animal speak, Eve listens to his story about how he ate the fruit of a particular tree and gained knowledge. Though she protests that she’s forbidden to eat fruit from that same tree, Satan persuades her to taste and after eating, she resolves to convince Adam, too. Daniel, want the, want to bring us home?

Daniel 38:37
You got it. In Book Ten, Satan returns to Hell loosing Sin and Death on the world and erecting a road between Hell and Earth. As punishment, all of the Fallen Angels are transformed into snakes, Satan becoming the dragon- so hey, good, we’re wrapping it up there from Genesis to Revelation, that’s smart story-telling- and they pour forth into the world. In Book 11, God’s son arrives on Earth to pass judgment on Eve and Adam. Here’s a case where Milton breaks from Scripture a little bit here by sending Jesus to do God’s job, interesting choice there. To comfort his punishment, Adam is granted visions of the history of the world to come. Eve is not because *laughs* for fuck’s sake.

Simone 39:17
Womanly reasons?

Daniel 39:18
Uh, yes. In Book 12, the angels continue to relate the history of the world become and then finally, in a bittersweet conclusion, Eve and Adam comfort each other as they leave Paradise forever, and I actually find the closing lines of this poem very, very touching from- for, for my purposes. So yeah, so this is- I used the Dartmouth version here, because it’s online and it’s much easier to be able to copy and paste these. *Simone laughs* Copy and paste the verses into the show sheet rather than transcribing them by hand because they’re long. And so yeah, this is the 12 book version. The 10 book version condenses some of these together like Books Seven and Eight become the same one because they’re eventually- because they’re, you know, two halves of the same story. There is a lot of debate about the proper way to divide up the story. There’s a lot of debate about the proper way to punctuate the poem. For example, people will fall into rat holes that never come out of on that. I don’t think we have to worry about that sort of thing here, but, you know, be prepared that if you wade into the discourse, these are the sorts of things that are going to come up.

Simone 39:34
So there you have it, the very, very brief movie trailer version of Paradise Lost, and all of its books. Now-

Tabitha 40:30
Paradise Lost for Dummies. *chuckles*

Simone 40:33
Yes, Paradise Lost Cliffnotes. Do they have those still? Like the, the paper, the yellow paperback copies? They-

Tabitha 40:40
I dunno.

Simone 40:41
Yeah-

Daniel 40:42
I see them in college bookstores all the time, so yeah, they must.

Tabitha 40:46
Are you going to college bookstores a lot? Daniel? *chuckles*

Daniel 40:49
No, but I go to Alexander’s Books over on Second Street, which is very close to the Downtown Campus of City College and they carry a lot of materials for the students there.

Tabitha 40:57
All right. All right, I’ll allow it.

Simone 40:59
*laughs* Okay. So, now we’re going to take our deeper dive here and we’re going to go through the books and- kind of focus on a particular quote and pull it apart a little bit for you. So, let’s just keep the order that we had. So Tab, why don’t you read this quote here from Book One?

Tabitha 41:20
Okay. So this is Satan and Beelzebub plan for the future. “Is this the region, the soil, the clime,’ said then the last archangel, this the seat, that we must change for heaven, this mournful gloom for that celestial light? Be it so, since he who now is sovereign can dispote and bid what shall be right: farthest from him is best, whom reason has equaled, force has made supreme above his equals. Farewell, happy fields where joy forever dwells: Hail horrors, hail infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell receive thy new possessor. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven; Here at least we shall be free: in my choice, to rain is worth ambition, though in Hell: better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.”

Simone 42:30
I know so many of you guys have that tattooed on you out there.

Tabitha 42:34
Yeah. *chuckles*

Simone 42:35
That last line. ‘Cuz it’s a great fucking line!

Tabitha 42:38
It is.

Simone 42:39
‘Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.’

Bella 42:42
If there was one mantra for Satanism, that would probably be it.

Tabitha 42:47
Yeah, I’m gonna definitely agree with that. [unintelligible chatter] I’m like, are you gonna finish that? *laughter*

Daniel 42:55
You know, this is a great book for people who don’t have the fortitude for long reads because if you only end up reading the first one or two sections, you’re still getting a lot of the really good stuff, a lot of the really good stuff is these first two chapters in Hell, and, you know, you’ll still have a lot of the reference points under your belt by the time you get to the end of those. Not that I’m saying you shouldn’t read the rest, but I’m saying, for folks who drop out early, they, they have still been enriched, so lucky that. I get chills every time I read this bit, I- particularly, I- It’s just. Ooh, stirring.

Tabitha 43:31
Yeah, it is.

Daniel 43:33
Okay, so we’ve got, like, some good book club discussion questions here. One of them- I particularly like this, there’s this weird phrase that sneaks in here talking about God, ‘whom reason has equaled, force has made supreme above his equals.’ So Satan here is kind of saying, ‘logic would say that God is our equal. Force made him better than his equals.’ What the hell do you think that means? Because that is some tricksy little wordplay that he’s got going on there.

Bella 44:03
For me, what I saw was the beginning of the breakdown of the system of hierarchy that God had put into Heaven, so this is the beginning of Satan being able to see that, hey, that God is no better than everyone else. He’s kind of seeing God for what he is, and this view is the crumbling of this structure right now to be removed. So, he’s seeing that only force has made him better than his equals, but is, is really starting to relate that his authoritarian-authoritarianism is just assigned and therefore begin to dissipate inSatan’s mind

Tabitha 44:45
Yeah, I get that same kind of impression that, like, you know, what, like, really it’s more of a question. Like, what, what is it that makes him better, other than he’s in charge is you know, he decided. *chuckles*

Simone 44:59
I’m your heavenly father and I said, so.

Tabitha 45:02
Yeah. *laughs*

Bella 45:04
I feel like the levels of hierarchy is a very, very base thing in Christianity and the opposite being a very consistent thing with Satanism, where we often eschew the system of hierarchies. And that’s the idea, like, as a Satanist, I become responsible for myself and [am] my own God, and a lot of those things- ideas have been broken down as Satanism often uses the value of authenticity, which goes against comparison, therefore, breaks down systems of hierarchy. And so, that’s kind of the difference between Christian ideology and Satanist ideologies. So I kind of see this as the beginning of Satan becoming Satanic.

Daniel 45:53
This-

Simone 45:54
If the, the kind of kernel at the heart of the, the whole questioning of the system.

Bella 45:59
Exactly.

Daniel 46:01
Well, you remember last episode when we were talking about the Goya paintings, and that particular critic whose name I can’t recall said, ‘really, there’s two basic schools of thought about these. You can read it straight, or you can read it ironically.’ I guess the ironic, subversive reading of this is the one that we’ve just given it, where this idea of it’s really just kind of trying to de-legitimize God and de-legitimize the fact that the war turned out one way to say, ‘well, God is not any better than us. He just happened to have won.’ He won through, like, you know, force- is like, the most basic, least, the most basic means of achieving something in the way that’s least afforded respect. Um, that’s probably not what Milton had in mind, though- I mean, I don’t know John Milton, people have been arguing about that for about 400 goddamn years now- Um, but, keeping in mind who he was, I think what’s interesting is that we’ll see in the later chapters, that Satan made this argument before the war, where he said, ‘is God’s superior to us? That’s news to me.’ So here, it’s possible he’s trying to preserve that philosophical and ideological structure, again, even in the face of the fact that they failed, which, like I said, it’s kind of tricksy. It’s, it’s, it’s- Satan’s rhetoric, the way that he changes values around and makes things very relativistic, Heaven for Hell, Hell for Heaven. This is the same way- he’s doing the same thing here, he’s saying, ‘winning, losing, forced worthiness, what do these things even mean?’ Let’s just, let’s just clear away these distinctions at all time, which again- is *probably* not supposed to be a good thing, but, for obvious reasons, we’re much more sympathetic to that perspective than probably the ideal reader at the time was.

Bella 47:45
I could see what you mean, because the term, ‘it’s better to roll in hell’, or ‘it’s better to reign in hell than serve in heaven,’ could also be looked at as sour grapes. *laughs* Because he just lost and was banned to hell, instead of-

Tabitha 48:03
For sure.

Bella 48:03
-this profound thing that a Satanist take of like, ‘yes, that is the basis of who we are.’ So, and of course, what he had said to that- this is not what Milton was trying to do, like, make the template for modern-day Satanists *laughs* to read over it and get some good material for our own basis of philosophy. His ideology for making this epic was to-I guess justify to Man that God was really pulling the strings and had planned this all along or, like, has, what is it? Eternal Providence was a term that was used as, as a goal for this Paradise Lost epic. So yeah, it does go back and forth, I see, where there’s a theme that seems to be going my way of things that I like and then, and then I turn around I’m like, ‘ah,’ he just seems kind of like he’s being an asshole and jealous of the way that things turned out. So you’re right it can definitely go both ways.

Tabitha 49:08
He’s like, I didn’t want to be on Twitter, anyway. You can ban me. I don’t care! *laughter* I got, uh? Friendster? *laughs*

Simone 49:18
It’s-

Tabitha 49:19
Friendster is Hell is what I’m trying to say. *giggle*

Simone 49:23
I was just thinking of the, the Alt-right assholes who declared that they’re leaving Twitter for what’s it? Parler, or Gab, or whatever? *in dumb voice* We’re gonna build our own Twitter with Nazis and terrible people. It’ll be great! But-

Tabitha 49:40
Man, it’s gonna be the echoiest chamber that ever was. Hurray!

Simone 49:44
Okay, let’s move on to Book Two. Bella, why don’t you read the passage?

Bella 49:49
Alrighty, well, in this passage, Satan is telling the fallen angels that he’ll conduct the expedition to Eden himself. All right. “Long is the way and hard, that out of Hell leads to the light: Our prison strong, this huge convex of fire, immures us round ninefold, and gates of burning adamant barred prohibit all egress. These past, the void of Night receives him next, wide gaping, and with utter loss of being threatens him, plunged in that abortive gulf. But I should Ill become this throne, oh peers, and this imperial sovereignty, adorned with splendor, armed with power, if difficulty or danger could deter me from attempting. Wherefore do I assume these royalties and not refuse to reign if refusing to accept as great a share of hazard as of honor? Go mighty powers, terror of Heaven, though fallen, while I abroad through all coasts of dark destruction seek deliverance for us all: This enterprise none shall partake with me.”

Daniel 51:05
So I singled this bit out mainly because of that last line there where he talks about deliverance, which, of course, has a very distinct meeting in religious terms, especially with somebody with a religious outlook of Milton, that it does sort of in everyday English. Uh, Satanists-

Tabitha 51:24
Hey, I just really quickly, like Dinga-a ling, Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, like that? *laughter* I had to; I’m sorry!

Daniel 51:32
Satan is kind of setting himself up here as, as a Christ figure, as somebody who is going to lead them to salvation, quite literally out of their sins. They are, you know, you’ll hear preachers use that phrase, ‘you’re in your sins.’ Here, they are. They’re, like, sitting in them. It’s everywhere. It’s all around them. He’s going to, quite literally, deliver them from that. I find that fascinating and weird. I don’t know about anybody else.

Simone 51:59
I kind of took it as that thing where someone- I mean, this is, this is quite literally, what it does- but it’s a leader who is saying, ‘Oh, no, I wouldn’t be a very fit leader. Now, if I wasn’t, you know, willing to do the things that I’m going to ask you to do. So here, let me, let me do this, let me possibly sacrifice myself’ in order to build that sympathy and loyalty. However, when I was reading this, I couldn’t help but think, he just wanted to leave. He just, he was just like, ‘I gotta get out of here. I’m gonna, I’m gonna make this plan or I can get the fuck out of here.’ Because he specifically says, like, you know, none, none of you are gonna go with me. And I’m like, yeah he just wanted to get the fuck out.

Daniel 52:45
I mean I think the text literally says that at one point. Just after this, Milton butts in with his opinion, pointing out saying it’s like, there would actually be no benefit for him to let anybody else go, so he’s cleverly framing this as self-sacrifice, when, really, it’s just if you’re smart, right, it’s the smart thing to do.

Bella 53:06
Yeah, I would agree that it’s, that it’s a smart tactic to take because they’re the rebels, they’re the adversity and you want to, you want to imply that you’re getting down and dirty with them, unlike God who’s sitting on his throne and has everyone else like angels and the Son doing all the battling and dirty work. Even if Satan is looking for glory, or wants to go his own way, and do his own battling or deviousness up on Earth, I do think that he is using this as kind of a way to connect, or maybe an excuse as well, *laughs* to be like, ‘I’m down with the troops!’

Daniel 53:51
Also apropos of what we were talking about just a second ago, again, a big theme in this is this idea about what makes authority good and right and just and justified. And of course, you know, over the centuries, it has not escaped people’s notice that John Milton is a failed revolutionary, you know, he tried to overthrow this divine monarchy, he failed, he ended up in exile, and he was, in many people’s eyes, vilified for his actions in that. So this question of how was he relating to Satan has created this tension over this poem for, for centuries now. And I, you know, I’m not going to be able to pretend to answer that, but I do know that some critics have offered this idea that he was actually trying to use Satan as a foil for himself. He was saying, you know, you may think that I am this villainous devilish figure, but let me show you what, you know, real evil and real treachery and disloyalty is.’ So, Satan here is kind of trying to offer, he’s trying to give himself legitimacy. He’s undermined this idea that God is a true king, you know, by saying, you know, only through force, only through these simplistic means, you know, has he achieved authority over us- what am I going to do for authority? What am I going to do? Justify sovereignty, I am going to act, you know, I’m going to be self-sacrificing, I’m going to be heroic, I’m going to put myself in the danger that, you know, I would not want you to ask. And so he is offering up an alternative model, which, again, is a fascinating idea. And then, Milton of course, undercuts that completely by saying, *whispers* ‘it’s not really what he’s doing. Be very, very careful when politicians talk like this.’ So again, there’s a lot going on there, you can be very inspired by this idea, but then also acknowledge, you know, that the text is doing different things with it than maybe we would like to.

Bella 55:38
Yeah, I also want to mention on that, that in the text, aside from this, quote, Satan tells his, the rebels, you know, the demons and followers, that he has been chosen as the leader in the situation by the laws of heaven, which is kind of ironic that he is going, he is forming all of this to be against heaven and its hierarchy and structure, but yet, he’s trying to say that, if you, like, because of its structure, he is inadvertently chosen for this role.

Daniel 56:10
That’s true, but you’ll notice, and again, when we get into the later books, you know, Satan has a very different idea of what the Hierarchy of Heaven, and now Hell, is than maybe it was intended. Like here, he still refers to them as his peers, and later on, when he’s rallying everybody [he] talks about, ‘yes, we’re all equal, we’re not necessarily all the same, some of us have higher station than others, but that doesn’t make us better than one another., And so, maybe, he’s- the ideas that he’s trying to translate that now into this new context, saying, ‘you know, I’m not really any different from you. I’m kind of different from you, but not in the ways that matter,’ you know?

Bella 56:45
I feel like, maybe it’s the residual of the beliefs of them. Like, I feel like it’s a way of manipulation, kind of, to sweep up the changing views of like, the troops of Hell, because- I think that making changes from where they came from, just in general, like, in life is, is a long journey, and so people don’t recover from ideologies all at once, you know, or even these, the characters in these stories, like they, they grow and they change. So, to me, I took it as maybe like a residual of if there were any doubters, or people that, you know, maybe held on to that structure of hierarchy, that he would say like, ‘oh, by the way, like, even on those terms, I’m supposed to be in this position.’ Like, almost the, the flip side of God. And I see throughout the, this poem, like, it plays upon that, where he, to where, yeah, like, on one hand, he, he says that there shouldn’t be hierarchy, but then he turns, like in Hell, but then he turns right around and uses him as the designated leader, and on his throne in a way. So, anyways, it seems to flip back and forth, like it never seems to be consistent on how Satan presents his position, because he’s against authority, but yet he’s also at the throne of Hell and at its helm.

Simone 58:25
We’re gonna go ahead and move on to Book Four. Book Three is just a lot of God and Jesus talking, so we don’t care about that. Moving on to Book Four! So, this is Satan has newly arrived in the world and he’s kind of wrestling with his own feelings. “Had this powerful destiny ordained me some inferior angel, I had stood then happy: no unbounded hope had raised ambition. Yet, why not? Some other power as great, might have aspired, and me, though mean, drawn to his part. But other powers as great fell now- whom has I then to accuse but Heaven’s free love- dealt equally to all? Be then that love accursed, since love or hate alike to me deals eternal woe. Which way shall I fly: infinite wrath, and infinite despair? Which way I flee is Hell; myself am hell, and in the lowest deep a lower deep still threatening to devour me opens wide, to which the Hell I suffer now would seem a heaven. Is there no place for pardon left? None but by submission, and that word disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame among the spirits beneath whom I seduced with other promises: While they adore me on the Throne of Hell, With Diadem and Scepter high advanced, the lower still I fall. So farewell hope, and with hope farewell fear, farewell remorse: all good to me is lost. Evil, be thou my good: by thee at least divided empire with Heaven’s king I hold, and more than half perhaps will reign.”

Daniel 1:00:12
Yeah, actually, I’m just going to- apologies to everyone, I’m going to take point on this because this is my favorite bit in the entire poem. Most people find Satan’s- the, the inspiring thing about Satan in this poem, most people find these very stirring speeches that he gives to his troops. This is the part, weirdly enough, that inspires me- it’s this very private moment, where he’s wrestling with doubt and regret and uncertainty in this very human and pained and relatable way, and I think it’s honestly really beautiful. And this is actually what I find inspiring about the character, is this vulnerability. And this is really, very much the model for, if you go back to the Romantic Satanism episode where we talked about the idea of the Romantic Hero, and especially the Byronic Hero, a character’s a hero, not necessarily because he’s admirable in a conventional way, but because what you admire about him is the depth of those feelings, and everything that he’s going through, and just the, the, the sheer weight of the burden of being this guy, but he keeps going through it anyway, and that is what you find so endearing and so admirable about him in that weird, ironic way. That’s this right here. Also, I realized not the most inspiring image, but I kind of think about, I kind of think of Satan as Jack Skellington in this scene, where he’s talking about the burdens- *laughter* expectations. Which again, like I said, is a, is a, not a conventionally heroic posture., but I don’t know, that, that’s very relatable to me. And so, I’ve written about this an awful lot over on the SBA blog, especially a blog that I really like called “Satan the Loser” where, again, as strange as it seems, the thing that I like about Satan is not that he is a mighty, powerful, intimidating figure, but that he is like us- that he is human, and that he is fallible, and that he has to deal with these same things. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that this passage in Book Four, this is actually where he is in a godlike position, because if you think about it, he would be the first person, in the universe, to deal with these feelings. He’s the first person to fail like this, and to have self-doubt like this, he’s the first person to ever deal with Imposter Syndrome, and he is creating this emotional universe that is layered and complex and nuanced, and inspiring, and really beautiful. And I find that quite touching. And so, more than anything, I always come back to this. And I also particularly- sorry, I’ll stop in a second- to a degree in Book One, when we find Satan kind of lying in the Lake of Fire. But again, more importantly, on this moment when he’s reflecting on it with a little more perspective- When there are times in my life when things are really bad, when things are really, really bad, I think about this- I think about that feeling that you get in the pit of your stomach, where all you can think about is, what do I do now? What in the world do I do now? And this story, and this poem in particular, are things that I think about in those moments. So, that’s why I love this and that is what inspires me, so I want the little Reading Rainbow sting to play me out. *chuckles*

Simone 1:03:15
Aw, that was beautiful! Just like your- I can’t recommend the Satanic Bay Area blog, “Satan the Loser” enough. It was really, really well written.

Daniel 1:03:26
Oh, well thank you, that was sweet of you. Anyway-

Simone 1:03:27
I’m biased, but-

Daniel 1:03:28
I’ve monopolized the discussion, how does everybody else feel when they read this?

Simone 1:03:32
Well, so harkening back to something that you said, Daniel, is the kind of relatability, because we’ve seen Satan portrayed as very, very human in other works. I don’t feel that way here, but the, you know, the grappling with this, self-doubt is, like, a very human thing in this kind of un-human being, to my mind. And it’s very sympathetic, because who hasn’t been there, you know? Kind of like, what Daniel said, we’ve all had those moments of, like, you know, you, talking heads and you go, how did I get here? You know, it’s, again, it’s an, it’s a contrast to God who is sitting up and far away and just watching, so, you know, a really good passage.

Tabitha 1:04:20
Yeah, I am. I want to be like, same. Same Satan. There’s something about how much this feels like Depression. And I know we’ve all kind of touched on this, but like, the way he speaks about what’s going on, and what he’s doing sounds to me a lot like Depression. And it feels, it’s messed up to say it, like, it feels good, but, like, it feels nice to be recognized like that in such a big, imposing figure.

Simone 1:04:53
Well, I mean, that’s kind of the thing about most art, you know. Y’all know that I love my Nine Inch Nails- the lyrics are depressing and angry, but when you’re in a concert situation- in the before times anyway- you really feel that you’re not alone, that other- someone has put to words your feelings, and all these other people here with you, singing along, are feeling those feelings too, so to explore that depression is, is really helpful, I think.

Bella 1:05:27
Um, for me, I really feel that accepting the whole spectrum, you know, the whole spectrum of human emotion, both the good and the bad, is part of being a Satanist. Whereas opposed to in this story, there is a part where Uriel, who is in the sun, like, sees him and- Satan is actually sitting on a mountain disguised as a cherub while he’s going over this in his head with this internal dialogue, and Uriel realizes that it’s not an angel or cherub, because he sees the, or Uriel sees the emotion on Satan’s face, and posits that angels don’t have emotion and are always at peace. So, to me, this insinuates, like, the Christian goal for piousness and purity is to be absent of emotion, and that’s what equals peace, but in the Satanic realm, as well as Satan, showing emotion and turmoil is all part of the spectrum once you’ve left Heaven. You know, and it also shows that with, with the story of Adam and Eve that comes along in the paradise loss, and that, they’re kind of naive and shallow in this way and then after getting the Tree of Knowledge, like then they too can experience the full range of human emotion. I know I’m getting a little ahead of myself, but that’s what I see in Satan exposing some of his emotion and internal dialogue and the part where, where they know he’s no longer an angel- or not an angel because angels supposedly don’t have emotion, but so yeah.

Simone 1:07:15
Yeah, I thought that part was, was pretty funny, actually because it’s like, ‘oh, here’s a beautiful cherub, why is he frowning? Wait, that’s not a cherub after all!” *laughter*

Tabitha 1:07:24
*laughing* That’s no cherub!

Simone 1:07:28
That’s no moon; it’s a cherub-

Daniel 1:07:30
That’s creepy, it’s like that scene in Invasion of the Body Snatchers where they figure out who’s not one of them.

Simone 1:07:34
Yeahhh!

Daniel 1:07:36
You know, that, that’s- I particularly I- thank you so much for bringing that up. That’s such a wonderful, beautiful point. And point- going back to what Simone said a second ago about how God is perfect but boring. Actually, in this poem more than anything, Jesus is annoyingly perfect, because, of course, that’s the theology there, right? Like, Jesus is so great you’ll never be as good as him., that’s the whole idea. Whereas-

Simone 1:07:58
It would drive me crazy, too.

Daniel 1:07:59
Yeah. Whereas Satan is already just like us. That is why we find him relatable. And, to the point that, you know, when they put together this story, when they put together the Satan myth, what did they do? They copied and pasted the story of Eve and Adam. This, you know, you, that you’re the preferred- you’re the favorite creation, and then you disobey, and now you live in sin. It’s the exact same story, so I guess it’s not surprising that they ended up sticking Satan in there too because they, they, they do this. It’s, it’s a repeat, it’s a rerun. You know, this really is? This is not Satan. This is the genius of evil when, you know, you look at, when we look at that statue, and, like, when we’re not just checking out his abs, *laughter* but when we look at the emotion of that statue that people find moving, it’s this moment, it’s this feeling that he’s dealing with. What Tabitha said about Depression fascinates me because, I was just the other day watching- if anybody knows the YouTube channel, PhilosophyTube, which, by the way, [Abigail] would love to have you on the show sometime- [She] has a video on there, which is actually about Jordan Peterson of all things, but in that video, he is cosplaying Satan, and he talks about how, yes, being in Depression is very much like being in Hell, and he quotes, not from Paradise Lost, but from Marlowe’s Faustus, but the line there is almost identical where he talks about, you know, “think you Not that I, who saw the face of God/ and tormented by ten thousand hells” by being awake, by being out- no longer there. That idea that everywhere you go was Hell because Hell is that feeling of just not being able to escape these feel- just not being able to escape this thing, that is, that is part of you. Ooh, chills, I get chills again.

Simone 1:09:35
To piggyback off of that, you know, I like the part where he’s talking about I, I’m in Hell, but there’s, you know, if that Hell doesn’t work, there’s another one below that and there’s another one below that, and it’s just Hells all the way down. And one of my favorite quotes describing Depression *sighs* is actually from a fanfic writer, but she put it in a very eloquent way, is that ‘Depression is not the absence of hope, it’s the belief that there never will be hope.’ So, you know, if it’s Hells all the way down, like, *sighs* I mean, why don’t you just lay back down in the Lake of Fire?

Daniel 1:10:17
So here we’re going to go ahead to Book Five. Book Five, as we mentioned in the outline, is a flashback. Now, Raphael is relating the history of the War in Heaven. I’m not 100% sure how he knows this since he wasn’t here for a lot of this stuff, but I guess God sees all. Nevertheless, here is the scene where Satan is rallying the angels to revolution. This is really where he persuades everybody to come over to his side in this conflict, and we mentioned in passing, the thing that incenses them is this creation of God’s Son, and this idea that, now there is not only this new thing that’s been set above them and this idea of, like, ‘Well, why should we be less than him?’ And, you know- so here is what he’s saying, quote, “Thrones, dominations, princedoms, virtues, powers- If these titles [yet remain not] merely titular, since by decree another now to himself has all power, and us eclipsed under the name of king anointed. But what if better councils might erect our minds and teach us to cast off this yoke? Will you submit your next and choose to bend the supple knee? You will not, if I trust to know you right, [of] you know yourselves natives and sons of Heaven, possessed before by none, and if all equal, yet free, equally free. Who can in reason then or right assume monarchy over such as live by right is equals? Or can introduce the low and edict on us, who without law err not, and much less for this to be our lord, and look for adoration to the abuse of those imperial titles which assert our being ordained to govern not to serve?” And so, again, this sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric that young John Milton used to argue for and during that English Civil War, It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of spooky, honestly. Going back to the-

Simone 1:12:11
Well, write what you know, right?

Daniel 1:12:12
Yeah. Going back to the Romantic Satanism episode, you know, we talked about how William Godwin, looking at Satanists or this revolutionary icon, this was the heart of his argument. He said, Satan just does not see this conflict in the same terms that God does. God sees a hierarchy. Satan does not really recognize that authority as natural or even logical. What do we think, based on what he says here? Do we think that this seems like an authentic and reasonable motivation? Do you think that is his ideals hold water?

Bella 1:12:48
Oh, yeah, I don’t have so much to say, because I was thinking that, I was thinking that it would insinuate that legitimacy was the only problem as if Satan still wanted to exist in the structure of hierarchy, but that there’s a paradox and that he acknowledges the hierarchy in some ways, but ultimately, I think he wants to destroy the structure of hierarchy and not be a servitude, in servitude of it. He wants freedom from it. So, I think it goes much further than just the legitimacy of God in his position. But when you were talking, I was thinking, well, maybe he means the legitimacy of the whole structure, which I think is the point I was trying to make. Did any of that make sense? *laughs* I’m starting to feel the fatigue!

Simone 1:13:35
You know, it’s, it’s, well, I mean, it’s heady stuff.

Bella 1:13:39
I think the ultimate idea is that the entire structure must be destroyed, not just the question of if God is legitimate or not and his authority.

Daniel 1:13:50
Well, it’s interesting to hear you say that, because really, if we look at this, what Satan’s argument? He says, you know, things have always been one way and that way was just. Now we’re being asked to take on this extra burden for, as far as we can see it, no reason. And so, in a certain sense, he’s making sort of a reflexive or even regressive argument. He’s saying, you know, this change is wrong for our society, we need to go back to the way things were, but in doing that, he’s actually proposing an even more radical idea. But to him, it doesn’t seem radical, to him it seems natural, you know, to, to challenge God because again, if he does not think of himself as subservient in the first place, he just thought it was, like, we’re all in the natural place, that we, that we’re all in the place that suits us best, and, you know, it’s the lack of merit of this intrusion is what is provoking him. So, I guess there’s a reading by this in which this is only inadvertently revolutionary. And at the same time, [he] now proposes [an] even more radical idea than the one he’s objecting to, which is intriguing.

Simone 1:14:55
Now, we are going to skip a couple of books to get to some of the really good stuff. So, Tab, you’re ready for Book Nine?

Tabitha 1:15:03
I am so ready for book nine. This is Satan disguised as a serpent, beguiling Eve, “Empress of this fair world, resplendent Eve, easy to me it is to tell thee all. I was at first as other beasts that graze the trodden herb. of abject thoughts and low, til on a day roving the field I chanced a goodly tree [loaded] with fruit of the fairest colors mixed, ready and gold. Amid the tree now got, where plenty hung tempting so nigh to pluck and eat my fill, I spared not, for such pleasure till the hour at feed or fountain never have I found. Ere long I perceived strange alteration in me, to degree of reason in my inward powers and speech, though to this shape retained. Thenceforth my speculations high or deep I turned my thoughts, and with capacious mind considered all things in Heaven, or Earth, or Middle, all things fair and good. But all that fair and good in thy divine semblance and in thy beauties I beheld, which compelled me thus to come and gaze, to worship thee, sovereign of creatures. Universal Dame.” Wow.

Simone 1:16:38
Why did this remind me of, like, a really positive Yelp review of a restaurant?

Tabitha 1:16:46
*laughs* So true.

Simone 1:16:47
‘Amazing tree with the best fruit, four stars!’

Tabitha 1:16:50
Yeah.

Simone 1:16:50
‘I got all this knowledge of heaven and earth and the middle, and, you know, big thumbs up.’

Tabitha 1:16:57
I know that this is, like, way not the point, but how does a snake eat an apple? *giggles*

Simone 1:17:04
Swallows it whole?

Tabitha 1:17:05
I guess? You bite it? *laughs*

Simone 1:17:08
It’s just gonna get stuck on its fangs if it’s one of those snakes that [have] them.

Tabitha 1:17:12
Right.

Daniel 1:17:13
So here, I’m gonna lay like, like, for people who, who skipped the college-level literature courses. Here, we’re gonna lay, like, the serious classroom shit on you now because the question that I’ve got is- of course, we know Satan is lying, he’s not really a snake. He did not really eat the fruit of the tree. The fruit of the tree did not make him smarter enough to talk and reason. Except, maybe it has. Because of course, we know that the fruit is a symbol; it’s sin, it’s disobedience, it is, you know, your self-interest. And, in that sense, well, didn’t Satan eat from the tree? Didn’t he do that first? Has he actually gained more knowledge and more perspective from his experience and the things that have happened to him and everything that led him here?

Tabitha 1:18:00
Well, he got depressed. *giggles*

Daniel 1:18:02
Yeah, I mean- which, which, so does Eve, very shortly, so, I don’t know. What do we think? It’s, it’s again, on the superficial level, this is not true, but this might be more honest than he really thinks he’s being, in this moment.

Simone 1:18:18
I like that point that, that he’s being more honest than he himself thinks he is. He, you know, the thing about lying is that if you lie, and you keep the lie as close to the truth as possible, it’s so much more believable, and I kind of feel that here.

Bella 1:18:37
I might be the odd person out in that I can see what you, what is- I can see what the question that you asked is trying to say, that there’s, that there is an accurate, accuracy in it in that eating from the tree of knowledge will change you and give you something deeper than what you had before. But, of course, I feel like it’s still really deceptive because he’s putting forth this idea that ‘Oh, everything is good about it.’ And in reality, and as a Satanist, I know that it’s absolutely not, it’s neither good nor bad, knowledge is a tool and they’re both to be embraced. And once you have knowledge, you have to embrace both sides, all the benefits and the consequences, so I really feel that he is giving Eve the runaround, and that defies really any accuracy or goodness that can be brought from it. I feel like he’s really deceiving her. Although, you know, I, of course, do think that knowledge is a good thing to be had. So, I can see what you’re saying there, in that he has gained some benefit from it.

Simone 1:19:54
Well so, not only is he lying, but he’s also compounding that by lying through omission. Like, he’s not mentioning the pitfalls, so the whole thing is a lie, plus he’s leaving out the downsides.

Tabitha 1:20:08
I also feel like- if we’re, if I am continuing on this train of him being depressed, that he is, you know, misery loves company, right? So, he’s like, ‘Yeah, do it. It’s good. It’s really good.’ And he just wants someone else to be just as miserable as he is. *chuckles*

Simone 1:20:26
Peer pressure.

Tabitha 1:20:27
Yeah. Thanks, Satan. Now I’m smart. Fucker.

Bella 1:20:32
I learned it from you, Satan. *laughter*

Daniel 1:20:36
Well, here’s my point. Here’s why I’m trying to, sort of validate the Satanist reading of this poem in a way that I undermined earlier, where it’s, like, you know, in the same way that John Milton did not set out to write the foundational cornerstone texts of Satanism, but that is still what he did, and I think we would argue that was probably a better result than whatever he actually intended. In sort of the same way, again, Satan is not meaning to be confessional in this moment. He’s not meaning to convey an actual gift onto people. But is he? Is he doing that? Do we, you know, again, we think that it’s better to have knowledge than to dwell in ignorance, even though knowledge is difficult and unpleasant. And so, weirdly enough, I do think that the poem has structured itself in such a way that it reinforces that. I don’t think it meant to, but I definitely think that’s what happened.

Bella 1:21:25
It’s kind of like an ends justifies the means sort of thing?

Daniel 1:21:29
Oh, maybe? That’s not really what I had in mind; what do you mean?

Bella 1:21:33
Like, he’s, he’s deceiving Eve of, with the idea that, of course, it’s good to receive knowledge and go forward- although I guess that’s not his itinerary. Like, he’s out to destroy mankind to take revenge on God and Heaven. But, I was thinking of it as maybe an ends to justify the means that, you know- the way he’s going about it is not right, but in the end, she would receive knowledge, which, as a modern Satanist, I think is the best course of action to take. But, Eve is naive, like, she literally has no skills or experience in making any decisions. She has very poor decision-making skills because she’s never had any experience at all. That’s why he’s hitting her in all these different ways with flattery, and calling her, like, what is it? ‘The queen of the universe’ and stuff like that, like, she’s really no match for Satan, but she’s really no match for anyone. She’s completely inexperienced, which is the downfall of not giving anyone any knowledge or experience in life is that they don’t have any tools to use. Like, it could be anyone, that you can fall for anything you can fall for. *trails off*

Tabitha 1:22:55
She is really good at standing right behind leaves. *laughter* That’s her one skill; being able to stand behind a leaf, so her crotch is covered. *laughs*

Daniel 1:23:08
Really, really high camouflage skill. *laughter* Yeah, here’s, here’s what I’m saying is, like, if we follow this idea that, like, Milton is- how ’bout this? Milton is offering us, with this book, something that is really kind of destructive, he’s offering us these sort of regressive, toxic ideas. This poem is, is sexist, and it’s patronizing, and it’s trying to reinforce theology that is oppressive to us. And even though many of Milton’s political ideas were forward-thinking for their time, to us, they are, you know, baseline at most, you know. So, his intent that he had in writing this was a kind of a net loss, from our perspective, but that was- what his intent, was not his results. He’s given us this poisoned apple, and we ate it and we discovered, ‘oh, this is actually good anyway,’ in a way that he did not intend at all. And so, I would argue that- this is the same way- Satan is trying to do something destructive here, but we have the better perspective to see, no, actually, this was ultimately beneficial in a way that he never intended. So in a very weird way, I interpret the poem, as its- as the subject, in, in a really strange grad school postmodernist way that, again, is definitely going far afield from the text now, but I don’t know. That’s where- that’s how my brain works.

Bella 1:24:28
I agree with you in that, that it has to be compared to the context of the time and the intent of Milton. Like, I thought one of the, kind of, revolutionary or radical ideas that he did in it, is that he made Adam- the reason that Adam was able to, or was tempted to eat the fruit and partook of it, after Eve tried to get him to was because he loved her and wanted to be with her and that’s a different version that is often not put forth in a lot of, in a lot of versions of- Christian versions of the story, and I thought that was interesting because a lot of Christian stories in the Bible kind of denounced the woman, which this story does, too, but it doesn’t really make her an object of love, or an equal. And that’s what Milton does in this story.

Simone 1:25:25
Yeah, in my reading, one of the perspectives was that Eve, being fully, you know, naive and ignorant, she eats of the apple and she sins, but it’s Adam who, like, knows what she’s done and does it willingly, and so that’s worse. A lot of the times, you know, I feel that Eve gets the shit end of the stick because she’s the one to do it and she’s kind of, it’s sort of skewed as she made Adam do it, but here, it feels more, or, you know, the perspective can be taken as Adam, you know, did it willingly and, you know, so, therefore, it was a worse transgression.

Daniel 1:26:11
Yes, going back to what you were saying a second ago about Adam kind of ducking out on responsibility here, that reminds me, if you actually look at Genesis Three, here’s out of the, the ‘Ye Old King James Version,’ let’s see was it- “And the man said, [The] woman whom thou gavest to be…she gave me of the tree and I did eat.” *laughing* So that’s- I crack up every time I read that because you don’t always picture, like, the little kid finger-pointing, ‘Hey, that woman you made for me did all this!’ Like-

Bella 1:26:39
As a woman that kind of makes me feel proud. *laughter*

Tabitha 1:26:43
Yeah, a little bit.

Bella 1:26:45
She was able to rope them into the Tree of Knowledge.

Tabitha 1:26:48
Oopsies! *laughter*

Daniel 1:26:52
I just find it funny that he’s blaming Eve and also indirectly God her,e by saying- it’s like ‘You, you gave me the woman, okay? Let’s, let’s talk about your hand in this!”

Tabitha 1:27:03
I was happy with the rib, okay? I could have just been there with the rib and not be having this problem. *laughter*

Bella 1:27:10
I think blame is a cornerstone, a cornerstone in Christianity as it is.

Simone 1:27:15
Yeah.

Bella 1:27:16
Like, you’re born flawed, God made you do it, Satan made you do it, on and on. There’s always someone to blame other than self in Christianity. *laughs*

Simone 1:27:27
Daniel, wanna do the last passage?

Daniel 1:27:29
So the serpent gives her this story and she objects when she sees the tree’ ‘Oh, this is the one tree that I can’t eat from.’ Of course. And this is what Satan says- this is the clincher argument here. He says, “Oh sacred, wise, and wisdom-giving plant, mother of science, now I feel thy power within me, not only to discern things but to trace the ways of highest agents. Queen of this universe, do not believe those threats of death: you shall not die. How would you? By the fruit? It gives you life to knowledge. By the threatener? Look at me, who have touched and tasted, yet both live? Shall that be shut to man which to beast is open? Or will God incense his ire for such a petty trespass, and not praise your dauntless virtue, whom pain of death denounced- whatever thing death be? Deterred not from achieving what might lead to a happier life: knowledge of good and evil. Of good, how just? Of evil, if what is evil be real, why not [known], since easier shunned? God therefore cannot hurt you and be just. Why [then] was this forbid? Why but to awe, to keep you low and ignorant, his worshippers. He knows that in the day you read thereof, your eyes, that seems so clear yet are dim, shall be perfectly then opened and cleared, and you shall be as gods, knowing both good and evil. These and many more causes import your need of this fair fruit?” So just to be clear, because the phrasing is not completely transparent here, where he’s saying, “Of good, how just,” meaning that if God punished you for knowing what is good, how would that be right? And then “of evil,” you know, “why not?” Since then you would know what is, if not, “why not known since easier shunnned,” so why would God punish you for knowing what is evil? How can you really be obedient if you don’t know what’s wrong? Then Eve, of course, is lying there, saying ‘what is evil anyway,’ which she’s asking rhetorically, but is actually a legitimate question on the part of Eve. Eve really has no idea what the stakes here is. She doesn’t know what knowledge is. She doesn’t know what good and evil mean. Is this really a fair test to put in front of her or for God to have placed in her path and then for Satan to be playing on here? It’s, it’s a contradiction in terms, isn’t it?

Simone 1:29:41
Well, earlier in the book, you know, doesn’t- God acknowledges that he knows what’s going to happen. He knows that, you know, as we previously said, if they aren’t given the chance to fail, you know, through free will, they are as slaves and so God is still allowing this to happen. So it could be argued that it doesn’t matter if it’s fair or not, because God already knows the outcome, and, I guess, it’s an outcome that he was cool with.

Tabitha 1:30:14
It’s like God got tired of his toys, and so he manufactured this whole thing to get rid of Adam and Eve. It’s like, ‘I’ll get this angel, he’s kind of a pain in the ass, so let’s just make sure that he doesn’t want to stay here, and then eventually he’ll go fuck around my kids.’ *laughter*

Simone 1:30:33
And, and, I, you know, just to continue a little bit. You know, we, we talk about how naive and fragile, if you will, Eve is. She’s like a lamb. You know, we talked on our goat show about how delicate sheep, you know, baby sheep are, and so, she is, you know, if God has foreknowledge of what’s going to happen, and he knows that she’s gonna do it, and he’s gonna punish her, he is again, sacrificing another innocent, essentially,

Bella 1:31:04
There are plenty [of] instances in the Bible where God is toying and torturing humans.

Simone 1:31:11
Totally.

Bella 1:31:12
What I saw in this is that the story is trying to note the transformation of Eve, eventually, through eating the Tree of Knowledge, but I don’t see that happening yet because I think the transformation is from the experiences and the consequences that you get from receiving knowledge and, and the things that happen to you in, in action. So I feel like here she is just doing the same thing; like, first she believes God and what he says, like, wholeheartedly without question and doesn’t seem to have the ability to discern the veracity of information that she hears and now she’s receiving it from Satan and she’s doing it- the same thing, like anyone that has experience is going to assess the information and be able to, to portion it out and make some investigation, but once again, she doesn’t; that’s part of her naivety. So she in, if she was to have her own story, I think it would come upon as well. And in the story, in this story, it kind of seems to center around Satan and his journey instead, which is also a progressive one. So.

Daniel 1:32:27
Well, I’m glad that Simone brought that up, because that- to the surprise of no one- I’ve got a bone to pick with god’s rationale for this whole thing to begin with. Where he says, you know, ‘I have to give them a choice or they’re not really free.’ Okay, that sounds good on paper, but if the choice you’re giving people is, here’s two binary options, if you picked the wrong one, I’ll kill you. Well, then there’s, that’s not really freedom, now is? *laughs* That’s, that’s, even on paper, that’s not really freedom. What’s actually happening here is we have this 1000’s year-old folk myth that no longer fits the theology, you know, the story was written- you don’t know what the assumptions of the people who created it were, but now it has to exist in this frame of reference in which God is assumed to know everything, and so, just like back in Book Three, which we skipped because Satan’s not in it, where Jesus asks, ‘Why would you allow this in the first place?’ Well, he’s got to come up with an answer for that, and I guess this is the best answer he could come up with. But really, the answer is, the answer does not suit the story at all because it’s a post hoc rationalization from 1000s of years later, from a radically different context. So here, again, is where I kind of attempt to, for lack of a better word, redeem the Satanist reading of this book, saying that, if Milton and conventional theology of his time can take this old story and interpret it in a radically different way that it was never intended to, fine. So can we. And if his reading is just- that is valid, then so is ours. You know, we’re doing the exact same thing that he did, and really, what could possibly suit the spirit of the work better than that, right?

Simone 1:34:01
Yeah, yeah.

Tabitha 1:34:02
*in a silly voice* Yeahhh, that’s real nice. I like that.

Bella 1:34:05
Well, well, Milton’s goal was kind of to justify and inform that God is actually pulling all the strings. Do you think that he succeeded in this epic?

Daniel 1:34:16
If he wanted to make God look good, then no. *Simone laughs* He just- it is a coherent story, but it probably does not fulfill his rhetorical aims, but, you know, that’s my opinion.

Bella 1:34:30
I feel that he failed in that respect, too because, like you said, it doesn’t really make sense that- Oh- It almost seems like an excuse, where they’re, like, ‘oh, God knew that was gonna happen,’ or ‘oh, yeah, he meant him to do that.’ You know? *laughs* Like, throughout, and it just doesn’t jive in the end for me.

Daniel 1:34:49
Yeah, I mean, that, that’s exactly what Shelley said, right? Again, going back to the previous episode, Percy said, ‘You can’t read this and think that God is in the right and once you accept the idea that God is wrong, Satan actually looks like a lot better by comparison, because at least he’s got integrity. At least he’s consistent. At least, you know, it all adds up on Satan’s end, right?’

Tabitha 1:35:08
Well, he gets a story arc and that’s awesome. You know, how many actual Bible stories or anything actually have a real arc and isn’t just, like, here’s a cautionary tale, here’s when we killed some people, I don’t know why? *laughter*

Simone 1:35:22
You get some more character development.

Daniel 1:35:25
That’s, that’s actually, that’s actually a great survey of the Bible. *laughter*

Bella 1:35:32
You know what, giving voice to the adversarial part and making him more human is actually a really powerful tool to make people question the premise before of the person in power. and that’s what this, this story ultimately does, because modern Satanists in the 2000s are now using it as a basis *laughs* and it goes to Satanic literature, so there you go.

Tabitha 1:35:32
He’d hate that, and I am all the way for that. *laughter*

Bella 1:36:03
I find that to be delightful. *more laughter*

Bella 1:36:07
Success!

Simone 1:36:10
Let’s go ahead- let’s, you know, bring this discussion home. You know, in terms of overall impressions of the book. I know some of y’all have read it many times, and some of us are a little newer, so let’s start with Tabitha. Tabitha, what were your overall impressions of the epic poem Paradise Lost?

Tabitha 1:36:33
Uh, Satan is a sad boy-

Simone 1:36:34
Aw.

Tabitha 1:36:34
-and I love him very, very much. *giggles* I think that it, it goes- I like the journey that we go on with Satan and I think that, even though I’m not really a big fan of liars, I think that because- going back to this whole thing that I’ve been, this through-line of Depression is that it feels very real and that it’s definitely something that a trod-upon depressed person would do.

Simone 1:37:08
To piggyback off of what Tab said, I like that Satan here is complicated. You know, is he lying? Is he, you know, lying, but telling the truth? Is he, you know, prideful? Is he doing the whole sour grapes thing? There’s a lot going on here and a lot of religious stories, you get these one-dimensional cardboard cutouts, you know, someone’s all good, someone’s all bad, and, you know, in many portrayals of Satan, it’s the, the complexity that I think is interesting, and this is, you know, one of the first examples of the character being given that complexity. Bella, how about you?

Bella 1:37:52
Well, I’m actually the same as you in that the biggest thing I got from it is that it exposes a lot of the complexities of Satan. I think that the largest power in this epic is showing his vulnerabilities. I think that- I actually feel a bit conflicted about the version of Satan in that he, he’s a paradox in a lot of ways, but yet, I think that harks on to, you know, being a complex being, and actually, it’s part of being very human, like he was cast from Heaven, and, you know, embraced, engaging in Earth, and in a way, became what we now know to be human, which is very vulnerable and is across the large spectrum of not only emotion, but good and evil. So, that kind of goes with what a lot of modern Satanists believe is that we accept and kind of embrace all those versions and sides of us, and then also take responsibility for it, so that’s what I kind of saw in this epic.

Simone 1:39:06
Daniel, how about you?

Daniel 1:39:07
Well, you know, I’m actually going to close, not with my statement, because anybody who’s listened to the show for any length of time knows that I really, really love this poem, and so I think I’ve gone on the record quite enough about that already. Instead, I’ve got a question for people, and my question is- you know, again, I love this poem, and I want more people to read it, especially more Satanists. And in fact, I want them to read it in the, sort of, unhindered way. I actually really don’t like those additions that have the, the quote-unquote translation because I feel like that encourages- go ahead.

Simone 1:39:44
I was just gonna say, it actually was kind of distracting. I would force myself just to read Milton’s lines for, like, a page, and then go back and just, like, confirm with the translation.

Daniel 1:39:57
I, I don’t like those things because I feel like they encourage reading the work in a way that treats the language, the text, like an obstacle that you have to overcome, but it’s not. The text is the whole reason you should be reading it. The text is the poem, quite literally, and it’s part of the appeal of it. I understand the idea, the frustration that some people feel, where they say, why can’t this just be more clear? Why can’t it get to the point? But, in [these] terms, like, the language that’s being used is the point, is the fact that the writer felt this is the only appropriate way to tell this story. When you read the beginning, the first lines of Paradise Lost, which actually are very unhelpfully opaque if you’re being dropped into them without any preparation or advanced warning, it is him asking, he says, like, ‘please give me the words that are suitable to tell this story the way that it deserves to be,’ so the text is, is, not only the story, but it’s a tool that is being used in the story in this very critical way. At the same time, I’ve talked about this on the show before, I don’t really know how to do that. I know that you can’t nag people into doing something like this, and also just telling them, they should- like, of course, everybody knows, they should probably read more classic literature, it’s probably not a lack of ambition on the part of most people that they’re not doing that. It’s probably that they’ve got fucking lives, and they’ve got all the things going on, and they’ve also got, like, some people, you know- some people actually can’t deal with texts, sometimes. They actually, you know, for, for neurological or learning reasons, really struggle with this in a way that the rest of us don’t have to worry about, and so, I find myself uncertain how to persuade people to approach a poem like this in the way that I really, genuinely think would be most rewarding for everybody. So I don’t know how to do that, and so that is my question for all of the listeners. What do you think? What do you think is the best way beyond just telling people they should do something? But what is the best way to, like, holistically motivate people- because of course, if only people are really reading it out of a sense of obligation, obviously, that’s not going to do anybody any good, you’re not going to enjoy it, and you’re probably not going to get everything out of it that somebody like me hopes that you would, so how do we make people want to do these things in a way that really, really persuade- that, that really solves these problems? I don’t know the answer to that; I wish I did. I will continue to labor to find that out.

Simone 1:42:21
Well, I’m going to compare it to Game of Thrones in that, you know, those are quite thick books, can be a little bit intimidating, but when the show came out, you know, I watched the first season of the show and was, you know, it’s- I used it as a, as a primer for actually- as soon as the first season of the show was over, I went and read, like, the next three books, and if you give folks, like, a taste or a simplified version, you kind of show them that world, I think they might be more inclined, or less scared, to tackle the source material. And it’s funny, back when I was working in LA as a talent agent’s assistant, there was a guy on our floor, who was a producer, whose name totally escapes me, but he had been trying to get Paradise Lost the movie made, for years. It actually-

Daniel 1:43:15
Oh, you knew that guy?

Simone 1:43:17
I think there’s been a couple, to be honest.

Daniel 1:43:19
Oh, okay.

Simone 1:43:20
It’s, you know, public domain, so, you know, lots of people can, can try and take a bite at the apple, if you will, but the producer who was just in the building with us, it was like this, he- it was like Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the hill, like, he was not getting anywhere and it was kind of a, kind of a joke amongst the assistants.

Daniel 1:43:45
So, so he was, so it was in development Hell?

Simone 1:43:48
He very much was. *Daniel laughs* But I think about it, and I’m just, like, man, if he had like gone through and actually made it- first of all, there’s so many different ways you could portray this, you know? It’s such a long epic with all these different characters and, as we’ve already talked about, Satan is very complex, and so, you could paint him sympathetically. You could paint him, you know, as the evil liar. So actually, you know, I think Scott Derrickson, the director of Dr. Strange, had been working on a Paradise Lost because I saw some creature renderings of Lucifer versus Satan. But, yeah, the producer who, you know, happened to work on Wilshire Boulevard versus Scott Derrickson. I would have loved to have seen all of them and compared them, and then yes. I think for most people, that would be a good introduction to take, taking that further step of listening to it on audiotape or actually reading it. Bella, do you have any suggestions?

Bella 1:44:56
No, that’s a hard one because it is notoriously difficult to get people to read, especially something like an extremely long epic from the 1600s, *laughs* especially when there are things available, like the simple version of, ‘then he flew.’ I personally think it’s a tool, and it’s a good tool for me, it kind of wipes out, you know, some of the clogs that I get sometimes if I’m reading- if I’m reading a lot of this poem, like, my, my head starts to bunch up, and so, I like having that tool, that as a tool. But, of course, I recommend to read the actual poem because, you know, it would be kind of weird and stupid to read, ‘then he flew.’ *laughter* It’s so simple, it wouldn’t be anything- it wouldn’t even be worth reading, but I think it’s a good tool, but me being, me having and running the Satanic Book Room, you know, I’ve looked at a lot of other book clubs, and a lot of them fail. A lot of them don’t stick around for very long because it’s really difficult to keep motivating people to participate and pick up books. Like, the reality is, is that a lot of people would rather see the movie version, or, you know, or whatever, or watch something else on TV instead of picking up a book, especially a really long, old classic poem, so that’s the question that remains to be answered. I know that the Satanic Book Room continued, continues to persist because we occupy a niche, which is Satanic literature and, you know, when you’re thinking of a group of Satanists, a lot of them are devoted to continuing to learn about it and, you know, that’s also kind of a cornerstone of being a Satanist, is continuing to embrace knowledge and move forward. You know, we like to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but getting people en mass to agree to read this poem in the raw, I think is- might be an uphill battle. *laughs* It’s hard to do; it’s hard to motivate people in that way.

Daniel 1:47:10
Well, you know, I realized-

Bella 1:47:11
But I still encourage it. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Daniel 1:47:14
It’s okay. I will add one thing. I don’t want to shame people, by the way, who, like, read that addition with the quote, unquote, translation, but, even though I really hate that. If you read that? Great, wonderful. I think that i think that’s fantastic relative to say, not reading it at all. If you only made it a little way into the book, and maybe you feel bad about that, I think that’s still wonderful that you cared. I think, even if you’re somebody who just, like, wants to read it, and you have not gotten to do it yet, even that is really an accomplishment relative to the people who don’t give a shit, the people who couldn’t be bothered to care, so I definitely don’t want to, you know, shame or stigmatize anybody who tries to approach a work like this in any way that works for them. Even though again, I have my opinions about what way is best, so, but I think that’s really important.

Simone 1:48:00
And Tabitha, what about you?

Tabitha 1:48:02
I’ve got three words. Hip Hop. Broadway. Musical! *laughs*

Simone 1:48:12
Wow. Wow.

Tabitha 1:48:16
Paradise Lost by Lin Manuel Miranda. *cackles*

Simone 1:48:21
I mean, shit-

Bella 1:48:22
The never-ending joke. *laughter* That was it. *laughs*

Tabitha 1:48:26
*laughing* That was my joke! *Bella laughs* It’s a zinger!

Simone 1:48:30
To be honest, like, there are only two ways you could ever get me in a theater to see a musical- no offense to my friends who love musicals, I’m happy that you have this love, but it’s not shared by me- first- Oh! Trent Reznor was nominated for an Emmy, so he’s gonna get that ‘E’ for the EGOT, that just leaves a Tony, and I *will* go see that show, but Lin Manuel Miranda doing a Hamilton take on Paradise Lost? Yeah, yeah, I’m gonna have to be there. *laughter*

Daniel 1:48:59
You know what, Tabitha is joking, but honestly? Look at that example- look at like, like, to make people in the 21st century, in America, care so much about Alexander Hamilton, the nerdiest, most obscure fucking American history niche that you could possibly have fallen into, and now? Like, that’s the, that’s- but people’s love for that is now entirely sincere, so you know what? The line between erudition and popular appeal is thin and weird.

Bella 1:49:30
So that was Tabitha’s joke, but it actually turned out to be the best answer.

Simone 1:49:35
True.

Tabitha 1:49:35
Like, how do you motivate people to be involved in Paradise Lost and want to also read it? If-

Tabitha 1:49:41
This is why they put me on the show. *laughter*

Bella 1:49:45
It was brilliant.! *more laughter*

Simone 1:49:47
Okay. Well, Bella, thank you again so much for joining us today. If folks are interested in learning more about the Satanic Book Room, maybe even joining and picking up the next selection, where can they find you?

Bella 1:49:59
All right, well, we’re on Facebook under groups and it’s just the Satanic Book Room. Come on down. I run it, as well as the help of three wonderful admins. We’re constantly adding new material and discussing Satanic literature.

Simone 1:50:17
Okay.

Bella 1:50:17
We also have a lot of files of books that you can read from our- oh, what is it? From our archive or files area- our files area includes a lot of free press books of Satanic literature and background that you can read.

Simone 1:50:37
And of course, if you want to get in touch with us here at the podcast, our email address is blackmassappealpod@gmail.com. The website is blackmassappeal.com and you can find us as Black Mass Appeal on most social media platforms, including Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Daniel 1:50:55
If you want to find out more about Satanic Bay Area, check us out at satanicbayarea.com. You can find us on Facebook and on Instagram as Satanic Bay Area or follow us on Twitter- the handle there is @SatanicSF. Under normal circumstances, you could also come down to satanic coffee hour at Wicked Grounds coffee shop in San Francisco on the third Thursday of every month, but of course, I don’t need to tell you that has been indefinitely postponed for painfully obvious reasons. Instead, pay attention to our Google Calendar and our social media to find out when we’re having our next online chat and, Tabitha, next time we do what are we going to be having?

Tabitha 1:51:30
Leftover Thai food!

Daniel 1:51:31
Ooh, oh! Fuck, I forgot about the leftover Thai food.

Tabitha 1:51:34
Yeah, we got leftover Thai food, including crab fried rice and I’m gonna munch it.

Daniel 1:51:39
Oh, we gotta Hail Satan and get on that then. All right, in that case, Hail Satan, everybody.

Tabitha 1:51:45
Yay!

Simone 1:51:45
Yeah.

Daniel 1:51:46
3, 2, 1-

Black Mass Appeal 1:51:48
Hail Satan! *Eddie Money’s Two Tickets to Paradise plays*

The post Episode 77 – Paradise Lost appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

We’re horning in on the lives of some of our favorite farmhouse familiars by taking a closer look at our good friends the goats. As anyone who’s spent time down on the farm with Black Phillip knows, our friends the goats have always reminded us to live deliciously. But why have billygoats gotten such gruff treatment from the public, who seem to always want to associate them with the devil? Here to help us forage over some of the history, we have Genevieve, executive director of City Grazing in San Francisco.

Praise, condemnation, questions, and punny nicknames can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.

SHOW LINKS

• Lilith and Uruk’s Home Fund – Go Fund Me
• Posters claiming ‘increased Satanic Cult activity’ in the San Bernardino National Forest deemed fake
• City Grazing
• Wiley Online Library: Goat domestication and breeding: a jigsaw of historical, biological and molecular data with missing pieces
• PBS: The Story Of… Goats
• Encyclopedia.com: Sheep and Goats
• Slate: Why Are Goats Associated With the Devil, Like Black Phillip in The Witch?
• How the Devil Got His Hooves and Horns: The Origin of the Motif
• TheTorah.com: The Scapegoat Ritual and Its Ancient Near Eastern Parallels
• The Jewish Encyclopedia: Azazel
• Azazel/Book of Watchers
• The Demonization of Pan
• Grimm’s Fairy Tales, 1812, “The Lord’s Animals and the Devil’s”
• The Horror is Real: Goya’s supernatural works hide terrible truths about Spanish history

GET IN TOUCH WITH BLACK MASS APPEAL

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• Leave a voicemail any time! Just call 1 (415) 579-2055.

SATANIC BAY AREA

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• Instagram
• Sign up for Satanic Bay Area’s newsletter
• Coffee Hour is the third Thursday of every month from 6 – 8 pm at Wicked Grounds in San Francisco

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Simone 0:04
Welcome to Black Mass Appeal, a podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on Black Mass Appeal, we’re horning in on the lives of some of our favorite farmhouse familiars by taking a closer look at our good friends, the goats. Also, in the news, satanic cult rumors in California are ‘missing the forest’ for the trees and Satanic Bay Area has a new Halloween treat planned for everyone. Joining me today I’ve got Daniel.

Daniel 0:35
Hi, my name is Daniel. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area and I’m a member of the Satanic Temple. And, say, Why are goats such bad shots?

Simone 0:43
Why?

Daniel 0:43
Because they only graze you. And I had to record that twice. So I would like to think that Simone and Tabitha were much more exasperated with me the first time.

Simone 0:54
No, no, I think it was still pretty effective the second time.

Tabitha 0:57
*Groans*

Simone 1:00
Well, also joining me today is Tabitha.

Tabitha 1:04
Hey, this is Tabitha. I am an administrator for Satanic Bay Area and sometimes I like to cross bridges and kick the shit out of trolls. It’s just what I do. You can call me gruff if you want to. I don’t give a fuck.

Simone 1:18
Joining us later in the show will be Genevieve, of City Grazing. Until then you’ve got me, my name is Simone. I’m an administrator for Satanic Bay Area. And I think that goats are the G.O.A.T., the greatest of all time. If you were the greatest goat of all time, you’d be the good goat, I think.

Tabitha 1:36
Kiss the good goat.

Black Mass Appeal 1:38
*Tabitha and Simone laughing*

Simone 1:39
Alright, Black Mass Appeal is a product of Satanic Bay Area and not associated with any other Satanic groups. This is a podcast for Satanists to discuss modern Satanism, its history, left-leaning political activism, and how Satanism relates to current events and pop culture. We’re for people who want to learn more about modern Satanism, whether you’re a newbie or already involved in Satanic groups. And speaking of Satanic groups, well, the pandemic and Shelter-in-Place drags on, but we still have something fun coming up.

Daniel 2:11
That’s right. Everybody’s Halloween plans are really up in the air this year still, but we do have one big plan for Halloween. That is still going to pan out regardless of the situation with public health in your locality. Tabitha, what do you want to tell people about what we’ve got cooking in our witch’s cauldron Halloween-analogy-transition.

Tabitha 2:33
*laughs* Are you- are you done? Or you wanna- you got a couple more words in there?

Daniel 2:42
Sorry, my brain has to reboot sometimes…[unintelligible]

Tabitha 2:44
It’s okay, I understand. So, we are finally doing our third chick tract. It is called “I Remember Halloween,” and it is going to be all about those great hell houses that I’m sure some of you, as soon as you heard me say the word hell house, got very upset. They’re these great things that Christian people like to do to scare children into believing in Jesus. So of course, we got one flipping it’s on its head and it’s going to be freakin amazing. And I’ve been working really hard on it. Daniel, you wrote it, and I have been drawing and drawing and drawing, and then, you know, trying not to freak out because the world’s ending, and then drawing more. It’s been a good time. *laughs*

Daniel 3:31
Yes, since Jack Chick wrote so many anti-Halloween tracts, and since those tracts are among his weirdest, his funniest, and his most ironically popular, it made sense. We were planning all along to do a kind of a pro-Halloween tract, but it took a while to figure out what that should consist of, and actually the hell house gimmick was a- gave us a really good idea. We’ve talked in the past about doing a Hell House episode – maybe we will someday – I think we’re handicapped by the fact that none of us have been to a Hell House and I certainly don’t want to pay to go to one. Uhm-

Tabitha 4:03
Well, I sort of went to one.

Daniel 4:05
Oh, yeah, you told that story on the show before you had like the- the Hell House 4D immersive theater experience. If anybody can, like, smuggle us into a Hell House for free, let us know. Because I don’t think we want to monetarily support that, but we do want to do the gawking anthropological research of being there.

Simone 4:27
Can we just say we’re anthropologists, or will like the league of real anthropologists come and be mad at us?

Tabitha 4:33
Yeah- you don’t want to find out.

Daniel 4:35
You don’t want to cross the league. So our plan is to send this one to the printer September 1st, so that we can start doing pre-orders at the beginning of September and start taking, uh, post-pre-orders? I guess those are just regular orders.

Simone 4:51
Just orders?

Daniel 4:52
Yeah, a couple weeks into September, and that way we’ll have them shipping out to you, you know, by the early October. Of course, we expect this one will probably be still popular after Halloween, but we want to hit that window.

Daniel 5:05
Um, I do also want to say-

Simone 5:07
It’s our holiday shopping season, we can’t miss our own Black Friday.

Daniel 5:10
That’s true. Uh, these make great stocking stuffers for when you leave your stocking out for Satan on Halloween Eve. Uhm- I do want to say one thing I’m really proud of- we did the first Chick tracks three years ago now, and we crowdfunded that. It was a very successful campaign- I’ve never done crowdfunding before. Um, and in fact, it went, we- that went so well, that we ended up with some money left over to produce the second tract, which we did, you know, the next year. And then I figured at that point, it’s like, okay, so we want to do a third one, we’re going to have to do another crowdfunding campaign sometime. But when it came time to actually put the money together for this, we realized that, uh, sales of previous tracts as well as, you know, everything else that we’ve done since then, have been so robust that it’s, like, oh no, we can just finance this ourselves. And I know that’s a small thing, but at the same time, it’s a nice, it’s a really great feeling to hit that kind of, like, bare minimum self-sustaining benchmark. Um- because, you know, I don’t know, it’s, it’s a couple of years ago, I would not have said we would have been able to do that with these. And so, uh, thank you very much to everybody who has, uh, who has any of them in their possession.

Simone 6:24
I mean, the support that we’ve gotten for the show, the support that we’ve gotten for Satanic Bay Area, and the support that we’ve gotten for the chick tracts, in particular, has been absolutely amazing and overwhelming, and the generosity of the initial kickstarter, the generosity of the people who are Patreon contributors, and the folks who are, you know, just buying and either having and giving out the current existing chick tracts has allowed this to become a self-sustaining venture, so, uh, we look forward to this new track and many tracks to come.

Tabitha 6:59
Tracks forever! Wee!

Simone 7:02
Well, before we get to more Patreon, let’s actually go to our Apple podcast reviews. So, um, if you want to leave a review for the show, it’s really helpful no matter what platform it’s on. Although, we read from the Apple podcast reviews because they’re the easiest and most plentiful, but by reviewing the show, you do get to raise the profile of the show for folks who are, you know, looking for it, who are searching. And also, you know, word of mouth, tell your friends.

Simone 7:32
So, let’s go ahead and we’ll start with Flumenstellarum, who says “Love, love, love this podcast. Never did the whole podcast thing until this one. I’m in a small town and I feel like I don’t have a whole lot of options for exploring Satanism with other people, but this podcast helps. I want to move out to somewhere with more like-minded people, but I can’t yet. I hope to visit someday- see y’all and converse about our boy Satan, but till then I’ll be your fan. Suggestion: The titles of song clips would be nice. I’m putting together a Satan-adjacent songs playlist.” Well, Flumenstellarum, just listen carefully: we don’t use song clips on this show. Wink. But if you wanted to search for Black Mass Appeal, in the music part of Spotify, there might be a playlist of songs that, uh, we really like on this show. Wink.

Tabitha 8:36
Songs that if we had music on the show, we would put in.

Daniel 8:41
But we don’t.

Tabitha 8:42
We don’t at all.

Simone 8:43
So we all, we all, we all get each other, right? Okay, cool.

Tabitha 8:46
Yeah.

Simone 8:48
Next up is a review from someone who’s calling themselves, I’m hungry and a problem, which-

Tabitha 8:54
Big same. Relatable. *laughs*

Simone 8:57
Yeah. Mood. *laughs*

Simone 8:59
Uh, the title of their review is just, uh, a series of the, the horn hands. They say, “I’m an agnostic Satanist and a minor, in a rural conservative area, so it can feel pretty lonely sometimes. This podcast is fun and informative to listen to, but it also gives me a- wait for it- community! I just found it a few weeks ago, but I’ve binge listened to at least 10% of the episodes. Thanks for making this show.”

Simone 9:26
Well, thank you for listening. Clearly, you’re somebody I can relate to- I’m hungry and a problem. You know, we, we don’t really talk about this, we haven’t really talked about this on the show a whole lot before. But, um, when it comes to working with minor people, people who are under the age of 18 in the United States, you know, for a Satanic Bay Area, we, um, you know, for myriad reasons, members of Satanic Bay Area do have to be of the age of majority. It’s for legal reasons, liability reasons. Also, just literally, Wicked Grounds does not allow people under 18, as, um, some of our friends who have an infant child found out, unfortunately. But when it comes to listening to the show, you know, people of all ages have the ability to find us.

Simone 10:14
And so, um, you know, we use a lot of swears, sorry about that. But, yeah, you know, and, um, on the Discord, we do have, uh, a designation for folks who are under the age of 18, so they could still participate in a safe and limited way. We just don’t want to ever be perceived as proselytizing, or of quote, unquote, ‘brainwashing children,’ but you seem like quite the, uh, mature and intelligent young person. So, thank you for listening.

Daniel 10:47
I also want to say as somebody who also was a minor in a rural conservative area for many years, you can get through this, I promise. I want to do like, I want to do like an “it gets better” video, but just for, like, kids in small towns who can’t stand it. There is a future out there, I promise.

Simone 11:05
*laughs* Okay, and our last one comes from Remy Voodoo who says, “New favorite podcast. I started listening this month. Love it. I’m currently on episode 17. I got a long way to go, but I’ll enjoy every minute of it. Hail Satan.”

Simone 11:21
What episode is Episode 17?

Daniel 11:24
That’s the music one.

Simone 11:25
Oh yeah, another one that we might need to get back to at some point.

Daniel 11:30
I think that episode is actually a great example of how one of the ways we’ve done this show has changed over the years. I don’t think we would ever do a topic that broad to tackle in a single episode, uh, today. *laughter* Not that that’s not a good show, I think it is, but at the same time, like, you know, it’s just our, our, our bearings are radically different now. Uh, which makes me curious what Remy will think listening to the rest of the episodes going forward.

Simone 11:55
Yeah, we, we know better, we know about, uh, how long-winded we are. How off-topic we can get, so.

Tabitha 12:00
Yeah-

Daniel 12:02
On that note, speaking of past episodes, I went back to listen to a show. It was actually Episode 33 about Satan in the Bible, and, like, I skipped ahead and, like, at the 15 minute mark, we still haven’t gotten to the main topic. Like, ‘fuck, what were we doing that day? What was going on?’ *laugher*

Daniel 12:22
It was so weird. So, those people who complained that the first act of the show takes too long might have been on to something at one point. *Simone laughs*

Tabitha 12:32
We’re trying!

Simone 12:32
*laughs* All right, well, yeah, in the interest of moving things along, uh, let’s talk about Patreon. So, Patreon is the means by which, uh, we get to run the show. It’s also the means by which we get to fund cool stuff like the chick tracts, like other Satanic Bay Area projects, and that gives us the ability to, uh, donate to charity on a regular basis, which, uh, we’re really thankful for. So, we have some new contributors to thank. First of all, we’ve got Michelle Martin. And then in the Satanic Mini Beast Club, those are the folks who, uh, are contributing $3.33 per month. We’ve got Satanic Brat, and D Mendez. Then the Mark of the Beast Club, which is $6.66 per month. We’ve got, Brodeseus92, Luke Fomley, Puppy Cat Midi, and Tracy, who is an upgrade.

Daniel 13:29
Thank you so much to everybody who backed the Patreon. Thank you so much to everybody who’s contributed to Patreon in the past. I want to say one thing, by the way, on Patreon when people stop being your patron, oftentimes Patreon will ask why, and if you look over the list of people who have unsubscribed to us over the years, almost always, like, well over 99% of the time people just say, uh, my financial situation changed anymore. I can’t-I just can’t afford it right now, and, like, that’s great. Uh, it’s very, it’s very, very encouraging that very rarely was it somebody who had an issue with the show, or with our Patreon itself. What I’ve noticed in the last couple of months is a lot of people leaving notes saying that they’ve lost their job or their livelihoods, been affected because of the public health crisis. And I just want to say to all of those people, thank you so much for your support in the past. Thank you so much if you’re still listening to the show, we hope that things get better for you. We hope that you’re able to come back to the Patreon again in the future, but that’s not the important thing. The important thing is that you’re looking out for yourselves and that everybody is getting through this, so I want to give an extra Hail Satan, to everyone out there who, like some of us also on this show, have had their lives and their livelihoods changed by what’s going on right now. So, we are all in this together, separately.

Simone 14:46
*laughs* Yeah. I mean, we are so grateful that you ever even considered to support us in the past or at all- that we completely understand and if you are able to come back in the future, sweet. If you want to just keep listening, also sweet. We just want to make sure that y’all are okay.

Tabitha 15:06
Yeah, the listening is the important part, right? *laughs*

Simone 15:10
And again, telling your friends is free.

Tabitha 15:12
Yeah.

Simone 15:13
So- but speaking of, uh, Satanic community and, you know, being there for each other, we do have a special shout out. Former guest of the show, Lilith Starr, former Head of Satanic Temple Seattle, her and her partner, Uruk suffered a really devastating loss a couple of days ago, as we, as we tape this. Lilith and Uruk’s home was, uh, damaged by fire, you know, burned and there is a GoFundMe to help them, to get back on their feet. There will be a link in the show notes and, you know, it’s already raised above the amount of money that was the goal, but fuck it. I mean, these are really incredible people who are vital to the Satanic community. Lilith is the author of “The Happy Satanist,” a book that I know has really affected a lot of people’s lives, and this is an opportunity to say thank you and we support you. So, if you are able, go to our show notes, find the link to their GoFundMe, and, you know, pitch in, if you’re able.

Daniel 16:23
Lilith has appeared on the show a couple of times in the past. She’s been a big supporter of ours. We met her a few years ago when we were up in Seattle for a couple of days. She was extremely gracious, she’s a great friend, and she’s an excellent Satanist, and people who are fans and followers of hers knows that she struggles to make ends meet sometimes because she is disabled. And this fire, fortunately, the good news is it did not burn their unit. So they did not lose all their possessions, but the building is condemned and the reason for this crowdfund is to help them put together some funds for, for moving expenses because we all know it costs a lot to move even when you are moving because of dire necessity. So, again, we know a lot of people are in tough spots right now, so if you can’t help, that’s fine. But anybody who’s able to put even- and contribute even a little bit, uh, consider doing it because, you know, um, it is, it is a very good cause in this case.

Simone 17:14
All right. Well. Let’s go ahead. We’ll take a break, and we will come back with the news.

Black Mass Appeal 17:32
*interlude music*

NEWS

Tabitha 17:34
*old-timey breaking news sound*

Simone 17:35
Those doots mean something. They mean, it’s time for the news!

Tabitha 17:40
Yay!

Simone 17:41
So today, our news story is titled, “Posters claiming, ‘Increased Satanic cult activity’ in the San Bernardino National Forest deemed fake.” “‘Someone has been putting up signs about Satanic activity in the San Bernardino National Forest,’ authority said on Thursday while putting those rumors to bed once and for all. Forest officials reassured the public that there are no known threats of Satanic nature to visitors in the forest. The posters claim that camping isn’t advised in the area due to, ‘increased Satanic cult activity in the area.’ It also said that several animals were reportedly sacrificed as a part of the Satanic rituals and that several people have gone missing in the area. ‘That is not an official Forest Service sign and there is no known threats of this type to visitors,’ the San Bernardino National Forest wrote on Twitter. Anyone with information about who is posting the signs was asked to call, 909-383-5651.” Yeah, and tell them, you know, tell them who’s actually doing it. It’s not Satanists.

Tabitha 18:54
*laughs* That’s so bizarre.

Simone 18:58
You know? Again, we don’t sacrifice animals. We don’t sacrifice people. Like, why? Why? Why is this the go-to prank? Is it a prank? Is someone, like, trying to, like, get someone in trouble? Is it they think it’s funny? I don’t- who knows?

Tabitha 19:18
I mean, do they think it’s true?

Simone 19:21
I don’t even know, man.

Daniel 19:23
Somebody on Twitter suggested this is somebody’s way of trying to get some of those campgrounds to themselves.

Simone 19:29
Ooh-

Tabitha 19:30
So, the Scooby Doo villain way. *laughter*

Daniel 19:35
Two things that I’ll say about this. First being that, you know, sometimes they will have these service warnings. They’ll say there’s a fire watch. They’ll say there’s a bear watch. I almost kind of like the idea, ‘Yeah, we got a Satan watch in place, uh, in the North part of the state today for next week. We, we, we got some extra heavy devil cult activities. I just, you know, we’re reassuring- it’s, it’s, it’s not a warning. It’s just an advisory we may upgrade to a warning, you know, as, as, uh, the variables develop.’

Tabitha 20:07
Satanic level is orange. *laugher*

Simone 20:10
Yeah, I was gonna say like if we had our own color code system as, like, you know, low level green is, like, you’ve just got some kids in black clothes hanging about. Yellow is, like, when their clothes actually have, like, a pentagram on them. Orange is when you see, like, a dead chicken on the ground? I don’t know, what, what would be red? Like, actual beheaded people?

Tabitha 20:32
Satan is- has arrived. *laughs*

Simone 20:35
Satan is fully- he’s fully there.

Tabitha 20:37
Corporeal Satan.

Black Mass Appeal 20:40
*Simone and Tabitha laughing*

Daniel 20:40
‘Our Washington bureau has reported that the Pentagon is currently at Devil Con 3, thank you.’ *laughter* The other thing I’ll say is that for the last two weeks, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about the Satanic Panic for reasons that we may discuss on the show in the future, but not right now.

Simone 20:59
Hmm-reasons.

Daniel 20:59
And reading these flyers I was amazed at kind of how retro they felt. Like, there are of course Satanic conspiracies today, we’ve talked about them back in Episode 18 and 40, but, like, they don’t, you know, they have a vibe all of their own. Like, it’s- that medium has progressed. Whereas these again feel almost like, almost like throwbacks, so I was very curious about what kind- it, it gives the impression that the person who made these notices are almost very naive in a weird way, you know, so. I assume this was their attempt at a prank and maybe they’re just uh, uh, maybe they’re not up on who their marks are. I don’t know. Weird.

Simone 21:40
Yeah, I mean, like, the current, the current Satanic Panic thing is all QAnon bullshit with pictures of Chrissy Teigen photoshopped into a still of the movie, uh The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover. This is old school. This is old school, it’s on paper, even.

Tabitha 21:58
Weird.

Simone 21:58
Posted you know, with tape on, on trees and shit. So-

Daniel 22:02
It’s almost refreshing in how, in how old-fashioned it is. *laughs*

Simone 22:05
Yeah!

Tabitha 22:06
Except for the littering.

Daniel 22:09
Yeah.

Simone 22:09
Oh, yeah. I’m sure the forest rangers loved this prank.

Daniel 22:14
You think Chrissy Tiegen would do the show?

Simone 22:17
You know, at this point- *laughs*

Daniel 22:20
What does she got to lose, right? *laughs*

Simone 22:22
Yeah, I was going to say she, she had a show on Quibi, and, uh, that show was- that whole network was fucking damned from the beginning, so who knows. Okay, let’s go ahead, we’ll take a break and we’ll come back with the main topic. Hey Tab, you want to hit us with that goat noise?

Tabitha 22:40
*bleats* I gotta do it again.

Tabitha 22:30
*continues bleating*

Black Mass Appeal 22:36
*Interlude music*

MAIN TOPIC

Tabitha 22:37
*Intros in with bleat*

Simone 23:00
As anyone who’s spent time down on the farm with Black Phillip knows, our friends the goats have always reminded us to live deliciously. But why have billy goats gotten such gruff treatment from the public who seem to always want to associate them with the devil? Here to help us forage over some of the history, we have Genevieve, the Executive Director of City Grazing in San Francisco. Genevieve, thank you for joining us on Black Mass Appeal.

Genevieve 23:26
Thanks, Simone. Thanks for inviting me.

Simone 23:29
Now, I know that this request to come on the podcast is probably a little bit of an odd one, so tell us what City Grazing typically does.

Genevieve 23:39
Well, City Grazing is a nonprofit based in San Francisco. We have a mission of sustainable land management and we facilitate that through goat grazing. So, mostly what our goats are doing all day is taking their typically devilish behavior and turning it into the heroic pursuit of reducing fire hazards.

Simone 24:01
Which, as Bay Area folk know, is absolutely essential. So, they’re doing, hm, somebody’s work, maybe not the Lord’s work.

Genevieve 24:09
*laughs*

Genevieve 24:11
They’re just being goats. Conveniently, that does, uh, the rest of us a great service.

Simone 24:17
I mean, I have to imagine that as a goat this is the dream gig to have.

Genevieve 24:22
Getting paid to eat for a living is a pretty good one, you know. I think we all wish for that.

Tabitha 24:27
Yeah. Can I sign up? *laughter*

Simone 24:32
Now, where did the idea for City Grazing come from in the first place?

Genevieve 24:36
Uh, well, you know, that’s a good question. Um, goat grazing has been around for centuries in terms of land management. And most, you know, in, in recent times, there’s actually quite a bit of professional goat grazing that happens in the state of California and nationwide. So city grazing, though, fills a pretty unique niche in San Francisco. A lot of grazing companies don’t want to come in to do smaller properties. So most grazers focus on 10 acres and up, they bring in hundreds of animals. I know grazers who own 4000 sheep and 4000 goats, for instance, they do really, really big parcels of land. So when you’re driving down the freeway, you’re seeing hundreds of goats on the side of the Oakland Zoo, that kind of thing- really, really big pieces of land. And, uh, we came about- the founder saw that happening and he thought, “wouldn’t it be fun to do that on a small scale in the city?” And we got a few goats and kind of started experimenting with it.

Simone 25:37
How many goats do you guys actually have?

Genevieve 25:39
We always have right around 100 animals. Right now, I believe we are at 92.

Simone 25:46
I mean, that’s still a pretty sizable herd but then I’m just, I’m but a city dweller, so, um-

Genevieve 25:51
Exactly. *laughs*

Simone 25:52
Speaking of so, yeah, you mentioned that most of these grazing companies will focus only on the larger areas, but, you know, you are city grazing, you’re working in urban areas. Typically what are the kinds of spaces that you bring your goats to?

Genevieve 26:08
Oh, we do everything from you know, a postage stamp size 25 foot by 25 foot San Francisco backyard with four animals to, um, a couple of acres, uh, in Mount Sutro that’s uh- We’ve got that one coming up again really soon. We’re helping with, uh, some of the forest restoration that’s going on up there. So we tend to do parcels that are two acres and under. Some of those are larger and more publicly accessible, but a lot of what we do is small scale backyard work. There’s a lot of blackberry all over the Bay Area, a lot of English Ivy, a lot of fennel, and all of that stuff can be made is favored by goats, some of their favorite stuff to eat.

Simone 26:55
Well, I have to agree with them there because blackberry is awesome, although I think we’re probably eating different parts of the plant.

Genevieve 27:01
They’ll eat the berries first. They agree with you. If you brought them a pie, they would eat that before they ate the plant, I promise.

Simone 27:08
Now, what’s the, what’s raising goats like? What’s the most difficult part of raising goats? I mean, you know, we hear that they’re, uh, kind of notoriously, mm, independent-minded?

Genevieve 27:20
Yes. Yeah. You know, we, uh- *laughs* have a phrase, ‘escape-proof fencing.’

Simone 27:27
Ahh.

Genevieve 27:27
And that is the quest that we are constantly on, and that is the most difficult part of containing goats and raising them safely. And that’s where they get their reputation from. Absolutely, goats are- I call them opportunistic, the nicest way I can put it. They’re a little bit sociopathic. They’re a lot like people. They have social cohorts. Some of them are smarter than others. Like, an example, we, we adopt goats in, um, we’ve adopted retired dairy goats. We just brought in 16 more goats. One of these 16- just one of them- studied the way that we were closing our fences, closing our gates. She taught herself how to undo a bungee cord within the space of 48 hours, just from watching us-

Tabitha 28:18
*laughs* Dude. That’s amazing!

Genevieve 28:19
And she didn’t do anything about it, just to let you know. She just undid the bungee cord and then stood there, proud of herself, waiting for someone to notice. *laughter* Like, ‘check it out! I can do what you can do.’ *more laughter* So, you know, they’re opportunistic. They’re just interested, and that’s the quality that makes them really good at doing grazing projects. There are very few mammals that you would want to take into a new situation every week. But goats love it, they thrive on it, they’re curious and they get bored. So, they are looking for a challenge. And, again, they’re a lot like people in that regard. So as long as, you know, I think of them as essentially being, like, having, uh, a lot of 14-year-old, drunk, punk rocker employees-

Black Mass Appeal 29:05
*Simone and Tabitha laugh*

Genevieve 29:08
Think of them that way- they’re like underage drinkers who are a little out of control. You just put some fences around them, give ’em something to do, something to eat, they’re gonna chill out, they’re going to do okay, but-

Daniel 29:18
Out of curiosity, when a goat gets out, and becomes, if you will, an escape goat-

Tabitha 29:26
Daniel-

Simone 29:27
Wa-wa.

Daniel 29:27
-what does it usually, what does it usually get up to you? When, when you go to recover them, where have they gone and why?

Genevieve 29:34
To be totally honest, the majority of them will simply stand right on the other side of the fence. *laughter* Really, the majority of them. Now, if they escaped because say, like, a dog gets into their pen, that’s a different story and they will just go on a mad, crazy run until they feel safe again, but if they are not being chased, and they simply find a way to go under a fence, they will just go looking for the next patch of ivy. And they’ll just stop. They’ll stop, you know, three feet away from where they were because now they’re eating something else. *laughter* They’ll go, you know, three doors down and be eating somebody’s delicious rose bushes, because, well, there they are. They’re really just constantly looking for their next meal.

Daniel 30:22
So they, they sound kind of like savants in that they’re very smart, but not in a very executable way necessarily? *laughter*

Genevieve 30:28
Yeah, yeah. That’s a very complementary way to describe it, yes.

Black Mass Appeal 30:32
*Daniel, Simone, and Tabitha laugh*

Simone 30:35
Now, uh, we’ll get into this a little bit more, uh, as we go further into the show, but the personality of goats, like I said, you know, they are, are thought to be quite independent. The comparison to 14-year-old drunk punk rockers, well, I think our listeners are gonna be able to relate to that. Could you maybe describe how, uh, goats compare, perhaps, to other farm animals, like for sheep, for example?

Genevieve 31:03
Sure. Yeah, uh, I grew up on a ranch and that’s kind of how I got into doing this. Um, and we had pretty much every other animal. We had goats for just a very short period of time and I think this is a pretty good example of, you know, it gives you what you’re looking for. The goats that we had would break out of their pen and eat my mother’s landscaping. She had this one little area in front of the ranch house that she would keep beautifully manicured, and every time she got those roses replanted the goats would breakout, eat all the new plants, and then just stand there. And the sheep don’t do that. Cows don’t do that. Horses don’t do that. Pigs don’t do that. Goats though, they have a knack for just waiting until the thing they want most shows up and then zeroing in on it. I, I tell my employees to think of our fences as, it’s a negotiation between us and the goats. There’s no real way to absolutely contain a goat unless you are putting up 10-foot cyclone fencing with razor wire on top of it. They actually can’t jump over that, but I have watched a Pygmy goat clear an eight foot fence from a standing position. Not even running or jumping.

Simone 32:24
Jeez!

Genevieve 32:25
Just standing there and deciding she wanted to jump over it and doing it. It, it’s, um, they have this power *laughs* to clear any obstacle, if they wish. And I kind of think that that’s part of where their diabolical reputation comes from because it is surreal, like you watch that happen and you question your own vision, you question- that you just hallucinated. Because, I mean, it looks like, a Pygmy goat is shaped like a pony-pig, right? They’re these tiny, little, round, fat creatures with short little legs. They don’t look like they should be able to do that. But, it’s kind of like deer if they want to they’ll go right over a fence, and you just don’t see any other animal who has that capacity, uh- in domesticated farm animals.

Simone 33:13
Now I’m just sort of picturing, you know, I’m, I’m just thankful that the goats want to go for the ivy and the blackberries, not people. Otherwise, you’d have, like, uh, real life raptor situation, like Jurassic Park on our hands. *laughter*

Genevieve 33:27
Absolutely, um, one of my former coworkers, uh, Trevor, used to say if goats had top teeth, the entire world would be a desert. *laughter* Interesting little tidbit about goats: they do not have their upper front teeth. They have molars on the top jaw but they don’t have incisors.

Simone 33:48
Hmm.

Genevieve 33:49
Which makes it even more interesting that they can eat all of the crazy plants that they can eat.

Simone 33:54
Yeah, I, I guess they’re just sort of pulling it up. How do they, how- what’s the mechanic of how they eat then?

Genevieve 34:01
They have very, very very dexterous lips and tongues, and if you watch them eat they will do all these amazing gymnastics with their lips to pull the parts of the plant in that they want. And then they’ll bite it off with their molars [unintelligible]

Simone 34:17
Huh. Already learning something today. *laughs*

Daniel 34:21
Ok, I’m, I’m going to ask the million dollar question, why do they always want to climb on you?

Genevieve 34:28
To see whether there’s blackberry sprouting from the top of your head perhaps? I honestly-

Black Mass Appeal 34:32
*Daniel laughs*

Genevieve 34:32
I, I can’t tell you that it I- you know, sorry, I wish I could. But they, they also always, like goats, always always always orient to the highest space, and it has to do with those really unique pupils that they have, you know they have the rectangular pupils, and it is theorized, at this point, that those evolved to give them the best distance predator vision, both to let them spot predators coming from far away, so they have an incredible peripheral vision, goats can almost see behind themselves from a standstill. But they also can then see all the plants that are growing in that range as well, so they’ve got this very unique vision and being up high just maximizes that ability to track predators, to track the best vegetation, and I think that’s why they’re just always trying to get on top- of you, on top of each other, on top of the barn, on top of the truck, you know, it’s just always on top.

Tabitha 35:35
I feel like the answer to that question is just cause they want to. *laughs*

Genevieve 35:39
Yes. In the end- you know, see, see that first word I used: opportunistic, and yeah, yeah-

Simone 35:44
It makes me think of SNL had this Tracy Morgan bit where I think that he was some sort of zookeeper and, uh, Matt Damon. Matt Damon was also in the segment with him and they were, uh, talking about goats and Tracy Morgan was just, like, ‘that goat’s got devil eyes,’ *laughter* and it just stuck in my head. It was the funniest thing. But, you’re right, the, the goats have very unique eyes and I didn’t realize that their vision was so good because of it.

Genevieve 35:45
Yeah, it’s a very interesting thing. Um, thank you for that reminder. I was a huge Brian Fellows fan and I-

Simone 36:21
Yes, Brian Fellows!

Genevieve 36:22
I, I do not remember that specific segment, so I’ll have to go back and look that up. But yeah, they have these amazing rectangular pupils and a couple of years ago, there was a little bit more scientific research done on, like, just what the heck is up with the rectangular pupil, but it gives them amazing, amazing peripheral vision.

Simone 36:42
Do any other animals, uh, also have that?

Genevieve 36:45
Frogs, but it works in a different way.

Simone 36:48
Hmm. I’ve never heard that frogs, uh, have been associated with the devil, but maybe we could start a new trend. We could swap them. They can take their turn.

Genevieve 36:56
Ah-don’t witches have toads?

Simone 36:58
*gasps* That’s an excellent point.

Tabitha 37:02
Getting schooled by the goat people. *laughter*

Genevieve 37:07
We have a lot to-

Daniel 37:08
I could be wrong but I think horses have eyes that are, are, I don’t know if they’re the same but they have weird, long pupils, so-

Genevieve 37:14
Yeah, they have weird pupils, but they’re different, but yes, you’re correct.

Daniel 37:18
Ah!

Genevieve 37:18
Horses do um, and I think, and again, this is not my area of expertise, so I don’t know but I’m pretty sure that some, um, varieties of deer and antelope also have a differently shaped pupil. It’s not the same as a goat’s, but, and, and again, the evolutionary theory is it’s just about having great peripheral vision so you can see that mountain lion or that cheetah coming along.

Simone 37:45
Now, aside from their current job, uh, as, as, as city grazers, as landscape management, when we talk about the domestication of goats, definitely, you know, seen them used for, for milk, for, uh, you know, for butchering, but also we’ve seen them depicted as you know, pulling carts. Uh, how, how workable are they in terms of being a domesticated animal?

Genevieve 38:10
Well, that’s a really good question and it’s a little bit breed specific. And, uh, some, some types of goats have been bred specifically for characteristics like workability, distillity[?], and of course, milk production or meat production. So, meat goats tend to be a little more difficult to work with. They’re hardy, they’re strong, and they can be kind of fierce because of course, the goal here is just to raise a really thickly muscled animal that when it’s slaughtered, will have a lot of meat on it. [unintellible] And dairy goats are bred for their personalities because you want a goat that’s going to be cooperative, easy to walk into the barn for milking every day, willing to put up with being milked and not kicking you, *laughter* you know, things like that. And we’ve actually come around, at City Grazing, to working with dairy goats for a couple of reasons. One, a milk goat only has about a five to six year, uh, working lifespan as a dairy animal, but they’ve got another four to six years of life that they could theoretically be allowed to live if they just had something to do. So we transition them into being grazing goats, and then we can work with that natural, inbred characteristic of being agreeable. It just makes them much easier to load in and out of the truck, easier to work with, easier, you know- less likely to run away if they should escape, and actually less likely to try to escape.

Simone 39:45
How many different breeds of goat are there?

Genevieve 39:48
Oh, I have no idea. Many. Many. *laughter* I would have to Google that but-

Simone 39:55
Well, I mean, uh, certainly seems like just about every continent has its own form of goat, so-

Genevieve 40:04
Right, right, that’s-

Simone 40:05
Worldwide, I mean, everyone’s familiar with them as an animal, which I think does help make them, you know, become more easily understood as a symbol. So, the reason that we’re talking today is because, as we mentioned, in the, in the introduction, the goat is one of those animals that constantly gets associated with Satan, the devil, evil, other entities like that. We’ve talked before about snakes. You know, we’ve made passing mentions to cats and bats and other creatures on this show, but I mean, the goat is the one that keeps coming up, especially because of the big one which is the representation of Baphomet, which is a goat-headed figure, so why don’t we, kind of, go into some of this lore that we are going to use to analyze the association here.

Daniel 40:57
So, quick disclaimer for people who may be listening to this episode before some of the other ones, we already talked about Baphomet way back in Episode Four. Also, by complete coincidence, we’re recording this episode on a baling day[?], so, hey. We also talked a little bit about the sigil of Baphomet in episodes 30 and 72. And in Episode Four, we also mentioned the parable of the goats and the sheep in Matthew 25, quote, “And before Him shall be gathered, all nations they shall separate one from the other, as a shepherd dividith his sheep from his goats, and he’ll shed a sheep in his right hand, but the goats on the left.” We already went over that one. Maybe we should revisit some of those topics in the future, I don’t know. That was one of our very early shows. Perhaps it’s, it’s just possible we didn’t know we were doing yet quite at that point, *laughter* but unfaithful listeners can let us know if they think we should go back to Baphomet- have a return to Baphomet, as it were. But again, if you’re wondering why we haven’t- we’re not going to talk much about those things, it’s because they’re called [?] already.

Simone 41:55
And, so, we have some little facts here that we want to integrate into this conversation. Tabitha, why don’t you take on this first one here?

Tabitha 42:05
All right, from ‘Goat domestication and breeding: a jigsaw of data and animal genetics’ from 2017, “domestic goats are spread across the five continents with a census of 1 billion individuals. The worldwide population of goats descends from a limited number of bezoars-” Bezoars?

Simone 42:28
You got me on that one?

Tabitha 42:29
I’m gonna go with bezoars- “domesticated 10,000 years before the present.” Ooh, that’s- *laughs* okay.

Simone 42:38
YBP, you know me.

Tabitha 42:39
YBP. I’m, I’m into that actually. Anyhow, sorry. “Domesticated 10,000 years before the present in the Fertile Crescent. The Extraordinary adaptability and hardiness of goats favored their rapid spread over the old world reaching the Iberian Peninsula and Southern Africa, 7000 YVP and 2000 YVP, respectively.”

Simone 43:02
A billion goats.

Tabitha 43:06
One-

Simone 43:06
That’s a lot of goats.

Tabitha 43:07
One billion goats. *laughter*

Daniel 43:12
I don’t know about anybody else, but it gives me a very happy, fuzzy feeling thinking about there being a billion goats in the world.

Tabitha 43:17
Yeah, me too. *laughter*

Genevieve 43:20
It definitely makes my job a lot easier.

Tabitha 43:23
*laughs* You’ll- your cup overflow if

Genevieve 43:27
Someone is always looking to give us more goats, let’s put it that way.

Tabitha 43:31
I wish I could have a goat. *laughs*

Simone 43:34
Don’t know we all?

Tabitha 43:35
*laughs* Shall I continue? “In general, domestication should be viewed as a cumulative and gradual evolutionary process that only in the long term leads to the establishment of a new phenotype adapted to cap- captivity and human needs. In this sense, goat domestication likely followed a prey pathway, i.e., goats were initially hunted, but at a later stage, but at later stages, they were directly managed by humans to ensure prey availability. The post domestication dispersal of goats was followed by a population expansion and- most notably in Asia and Africa. These continents nowadays contain 58.2 and 36.2%, respectively, of the 1 billion goats worldwide.

Simone 44:28
So when we’re talking domestication, people are like, ‘hey, goats are delicious. Let’s keep them around,’ and then they realized, goats are awesome for other reasons, so we definitely want to keep them around.

Tabitha 44:39
This goat’s really good at getting out of its pen. How can we use this to our advantage? *laughter*

Simone 44:45
Did Harry Houdini have any goats that were aware of? *Tabitha laughs* I wonder how many goats are just named Houdini, basically?

Genevieve 44:54
Oh, so many. *laughter*

Tabitha 44:58
Do all of yours have names? Like, are they all individuals?

Genevieve 45:01
Yes.

Tabitha 45:01
Oh my gosh, I love it.

Genevieve 45:03
Um, and, you know, their names can sometimes come out of their personalities. One of the new ones we’ve just named her Ponch, and it’s kind of a circuitous route to how that got there, but she was dancing on a little, tiny table like one of the hippos from Fantasia.

Black Mass Appeal 45:21
*collective aww’ing*

Genevieve 45:21
And we’re watch- and she’s this great big, giant animal, you know, she must weigh close to 200 pounds-

Tabitha 45:27
Wow. *laughs*

Genevieve 45:27
-she really needs to lose weight. And she’s twirling around, you know, and just like, very proud of herself that she can balance on her little tippy toes. And I said, “She looks like one of the hippos from Fantasia, doesn’t she?” And, and, my, my number one goater Dawn was like, “I’m on it!” She just looks it up on her phone, she’s like, “You know, the composer was [Ponchielli], let’s name her Ponch, “so we did.

Simone 45:52
Oh-

Tabitha 45:52
Aw, I love it!

Genevieve 45:54
Sometimes they get a name out of their hobbies or they’re- the one who immediately learned how to undo bungee cords? Her name is Trouble, for obvious reasons.

Black Mass Appeal 46:04
*laughter*

Simone 46:04
A goat named Trouble!

Tabitha 46:04
That was my nickname in high school.

Genevieve 46:06
Yes, exactly.

Simone 46:07
So cute!

Genevieve 46:08
So yeah, they all, they all end up with names. Sometimes we just name them all after a boy band, you know. It’s just, it’s how it works out.

Simone 46:16
You know, since you’ve got the, the individuals with their personalities, is there a way that you kind of rotate them in and out of jobs? Is there some goats that are better at certain, certain jobs than others? Or-

Genevieve 46:26
Yes.

Simone 46:27
-is it just kind of whoever’s on duty that day?

Genevieve 46:29
It’s a little bit of both, but definitely, you want to have, you know, let’s say we’re splitting off five goats or 15 goats to go to a backyard. You want to pick at least one good alpha goat, who’s gonna kind of show the other ones what to do and, and stick up for them if, you know, let’s say a dog or coyote comes into the property. And you don’t want too many of those. You wouldn’t want to grab a group of like three goats who all have alpha tendencies because they’re just gonna spend the whole time fighting. But you also don’t want to pick one goat who’s going to get bowled by two others. So we look for the social cohorts that they form on their own. And we have certain groups that, that tend to be together, like we’ve got one herd that’s- we refer to our main herd as the OG’s, the original goats-

Black Mass Appeal 47:20
*laughter*

Daniel 47:20
-and, you know, adding goats into that, that’s just a large group of goats that all get along pretty well together. They’re all adults. They’re all in good health. None of them have any real issues. And we, we wouldn’t want to put in anyone, any of the goats that are too young or too new, or have health challenges in with that larger cohort.

Simone 47:40
So, what is goat society? Like, is there kind of a pecking order structure? Or, you know, I guess it depends on the individual personalities?

Genevieve 47:51
Yeah, let’s return back to that example of drunk 14-year-old punks.

Black Mass Appeal 47:57
*laughter*

Genevieve 47:57
So you can imagine, let’s say- we’ve all been to Gilman Street, you go to Gilman Street, there are 100 kids in there. There’s going to be a pecking order, right?

Tabitha 48:07
Sure.

Genevieve 48:07
Like, you’re going to have, you’re going to have little fights, you’re going to have little mock battles going on. There’s going to be a lot of one-upmanship. That’s what goats are doing constantly. Or at least that’s how Gilman was way back when in the 80’s when I used to go. *laughs* So, that’s- I, I, I constantly return back to that when I’m watching the goats. It’s really fun if you, like, if we’ve split them up. Let’s say we’ve taken 40 goats to one place, 40 goats to another, and they return, everybody comes back together at a different, larger location. They will go through, they will have, like, it’s basically, like, a fist bump, they’ll just touch heads. Like, “oh, I haven’t seen you in a while.”

Black Mass Appeal 48:47
*collective aww’ing*

Genevieve 48:48
And they’ll give each other a little bump. But sometimes that bonk turns into, like, they’ve got their hackles raised, and they’re going to have an actual little, like, ‘I didn’t like you then and I don’t like you now,” kind of a thing and just start going at each other. And it’s all in good fun. It’s very rare that those mock battles end up with any actual physical injury. Part of that is because we don’t actually keep any intact billy goats in our herd. All of our males are fixed. And that’s partially population control, but it’s also about herd management.

Simone 49:21
Right? You know, I’ve definitely seen the, the pictures of the goats who have pool noodles placed over their horns because they’ve gotten into a bad habit of, of head-butting people. What’s, what’s, what’s that behavior about? You know, I don’t know that many animals outside of goats, maybe bighorn sheep, that, that use head-butting as the main, kind of, battle mode.

Genevieve 49:44
Yeah, yeah, I will say that, you know, in all of my years of working with animals, I have been injured by a sheep quite intensely with a head-butting. I’ve never had any of my goats hit me in a way that was that forceful. And the only time that I’ve had my goats hit me hard enough to really make me, you know, step back, they thought it was another goat. And it’s funny because if they hit you and they think you’re another goat, they will suddenly pull back and look at you with this very apologetic like, “Oh, I’m sorry, did I do that?” *laughter* Because they, they definitely know the difference between us and each other and they hit each other, much more forcefully. They know that we will bring them food, they know that we’re going to take them to the next good meal. So they’re relatively cooperative with us. I won’t say they’re always cooperative. You know, they will fight back if they decide it’s not the day they want to get in the truck, but it’s still on a much lower level than the way that they battle with each other.

Tabitha 50:48
They know that we’re squishy?

Genevieve 50:50
They know that we’re squishy! Yeah, they do seem to- they also know that, you know, I think, even more, they know that we know where the good food is. They don’t know know how to drive, but I do. *laughter* And they know that, you know, we will get in the truck and we will take them to the next good meal or we will bring a good meal to them with it. And they’re very, very aware of what that connection is. And, I know, I like to train them with a bell so that if they do get out, again, let’s say they do get out, they are getting chased by a dog or they just take off down the street because they’re freaked out. If they hear our bell, they will come to it because they know like, “Oh, there’s the lady with the food.”

Simone 51:31
It’s the dinner bell.

Genevieve 51:31
So, it’s- yep, that’s- it’s always the dinner bell. And, so but to get back to the head-butting issues, I really, really do think that it’s a method of communication. They do have a very intense social hierarchy. There is always a goat that’s at the top. And it’s really interesting when our, when our alpha goat passes away. It’s really interesting to watch the jockeying that occurs and we’ll have a few months where there are three or four goats that are trying to re-establish the pecking order. And they’ll actually rule together pretty comfortably until one emerges as the actual alpha. And that alpha is always being challenged just a little bit. And that goat has kind of like a, a lower level cohort of those other, like, three or four that were originally jockeying, they work it out. And so then they get a kind of, like, a court system going on, basically. So you’ve got your ruler, and he’s got his three, or she, underlings, and they tend to take the fights from the younger goats that are trying to come up.

Simone 52:16
Huh. Now, how do they get along with other animals? You know, we have here a quote from the story of goats from PBS. And it says that “in the earliest days of livestock farming, flocks of goats have been partnered with flocks of sheep since the grazing habits and byproducts of both animals complement one another, where sheep are placid grazers, legendary for following a leader. Goats are more fastidious and inquisitive browsers infamous for wandering off on their own accord.” Now, do you see pairs of goats with, with sheep? Do they get along with other farm animals? Or do you have to kind of keep them separate?

Genevieve 53:19
I’ll be honest, when I looked at that, it’s, it’s a very idealistic description of what’s going on there. Sheep and goats are good in terms of, like, you have goats go through and graze a pasture first, because they’re going to eat things that will one, kill a sheep, and two, that sheep just don’t like. So they’re going to eat all the top, they’ll eat all the brush, they’ll things like blackberry and scotch broom, which sheep simply can’t eat. It basically comes down to their need for minerals, so she- goats have a need for copper and selenium. That in a week, a goat, what a goat needs will kill a sheep, so it’s a very different set of needs. And sheep love grass, they- goats will eat grass but they don’t love it- we really have to bribe them into it and convince them to do it. Sheep love it, so that’s why they would follow each other in rotational grazing like traditional on a, on a ranch. Sheep will follow goats quite well but not in a shared herd situation. So, you don’t keep your goats and your sheep living in the same area because goats will kill a sheep just for fun.

Simone 54:35
Oh wow.

Genevieve 54:36
Yeah, they, they do get their demonic reputation *laughter* a little bit because they will do things like, like- large- one of the reasons we don’t put baby goats in with our OG’s is because the OG’s will kill a baby goat just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They’re very aggressive with each other and with other animals. If they feel like it; not always. It’s not consistent behavior. But it’s consistent enough that they are deserving of their reputation.

Daniel 55:09
Well, on the subject of sheep and goats, can we get to a point that I’m really excited about?

Genevieve 55:14
Yes.

Simone 55:15
Go for it.

Daniel 55:16
So over the years, we have sometimes run into this question of why the goat thing with the devil? Why that animal and that imagery specifically? And of course, that’s not the only animal that gets tied into Satan and Satanism, but obviously, it’s the most common. And in the past, I feel like we have struggled to answer that question because it seems like a very obscure, esoteric point, and I was never 100% happy with the explanation that people gave to me. Finally, I think I’m going to give away the game up front because even though we have a million things to talk about, this one I feel like is kind of the big answer, at least I’ve convinced of that. Here, I’m going to read from an Encyclopedia. com article here about sheep and goats in the history of world religions: “Sheep and goats appear frequently in the history of religions from prehistoric times down to the present and across a wide geographic area. In religious practice and mythology, goats have been important as symbols of extraordinary virility and fecundity and as animals associated with the profane, and so we’re often associated with fertility cults.” I’d just like to point that out: Why do, why do livestock, for example, show up in people’s religious beliefs and practices? Because that’s what they’ve got around. Goats are an extremely common herd animal to raise and, as we learned prior to that, to hunt, so of course, they’re going to show up in people’s spiritual beliefs. ‘Cuz they’re everywhere, right? You know, this is, this is what you fold into your practices is these things that are in your lives. Continuing, “A Babylonian hymn compares Ishtar to a goat and Tammuz to a kid. Also in Babylonia, a goat was sacrificed in order to rid a person of disease. In a Sumerian tradition, the goat was linked to the god Enki, who had the form of a goat in the front and a fish’s tail in the back that was crowned with the head of a ram.” You will, you will see that I noticed a lot of conflating or mixing up of goats and rams in art and in various other practices. Continuing, “This bizarre combination reflects Enki’s nature as ruler of both water and plants. In the Israelite religion, the goat was the preferred sacrifice to Yahweh. Ancient beliefs about goats have survived in folklore of various modern peoples. Modern day Mummers continue to link the goat with the ancient cult of fertility when they sing, ‘where the goat goes, there the wheat grows.'” I don’t think I know that one, but apparently it’s a banger from way back. “And when they portray the mock death of a goat and its subsequent resurrection-” Okay, that’s intriguing. “As in ancient times, the goat continues to be associated [with] various traditions with the nether world with ketonic power-” Ketonic means underground. “In this respect, the goat is opposed to the pure lamb. And that last sentence is where I said, “Aha! Now I think I get it,” because we know that in Christian, in Christian theology, Jesus is frequently likened to the lamb, to the sacrificial lamb specifically, and in the Book of Revelation, he even appears as the slaughtered lamb in some of John’s, let’s call them interesting, visions. Go back to Episode 53 for more on that. And so, it makes sense that if you are looking for animal imagery that is complimentary, but inverse to a goat, what is it going to be a sheep or a lamb? What’s it going to be except a goat, they’re frequently raised together. But as Genevieve points out, they have kind of cross purposes, they have sort of inverse personalities. You could also compare Satan to a predatory animal like a lion or a wolf, and sometimes they do that, but the goat just kind of makes sense. It’s right there. It’s the obvious alternative. And so I don’t think it’s surprising that we get things like the parable of the goats and the sheep that we talked about earlier. and I also don’t think it’s surprising that, again, if you were looking for a counterpoint to this one specific image of the pure, innocent, beautiful lamb, it’s probably gonna be the goat. It’s probably gonna be the drunken, 14-year-old, frat boy of your herd. So more than anything else-

Tabitha 59:00
They’re not frat boys, they’re punkers, man.

Daniel 59:01
Oh, yes. Excuse me. Thank you. *laughter*

Genevieve 59:04
They’re more fun than frat boys, you know what I mean?

Daniel 59:07
*laughs* Fair enough. But you see what I’m getting at here. It’s all of the, all of the tumblers click into place on that, at least in my opinion, so-

Genevieve 59:15
Yup.

Daniel 59:15
-if there’s one big answer, I think this is it, so I was very excited about that.

Genevieve 59:19
Yeah, if I can comment to that just to back you up, I would say from personal experience with sheep and goats, If you want a group of sheep, like, let’s say you were, you are herding sheep. You want them to go in a direction, you can get one of them moving in one direction and the rest of them will simply go along with it. They will stick together. We’ve all seen these videos, and it’s very easy to keep goats all- or sheep all going in the same direction. Goats, on the other hand, if they decide that there is something on the other side of you, that is more delicious than where you want them to go, they don’t care. They- you can, you can grab their herd leader and try to make it go in the direction you wish for it to go, the rest of the goats will not follow you, they will go eat all of the roses or all of the wheat or all of whatever it is that they wish to get to, then they’ll follow you afterwards. And that streak of independence, would, I would think, for, you know, a group of people that are, are nomads, that are leading these types of animals around, you could absolutely associate that lamb, which is also again, a more fragile creature that is more likely to die if he eats the wrong thing or doesn’t get enough water. Sheep are also are much more- they’re less drought tolerant and are more heat-sensitive than goats. Goats can go for days without drinking, and really not have any problems at all. And, so they’re, they’re just these incredibly hardy animals that have the ability to survive on their own and can do whatever they wish. Sheep don’t really have that. They are much more the domesticated animal that is dependent on the shepherd. So, the, the analogy in the Bible is, is really clear if you’ve worked with both animals. It just seemed super obvious to me even as a bored child listening to *laughter* Bible readings, I was always, like, “Oh, yep, pretty obvious there, isn’t it?” So-

Daniel 1:01:24
And, um, I, I would say, by, by that same token, that means that goats actually make a handy analogy for Satanism, also, because- We’ve talked a little bit on the show before about how being a Satanist has some built-in internal contradictions. Yes, sometimes, we have leaders, or we have formal groups, or we have rules and tenants and structures, but we also stress this idea about individualism as the primary motivating factor. And, sometimes those ideas get in the way of each other. But, you know, you look at the goat. It’s like, well, goats are social animals. Goats have structure. Goats have leaders, but they also sometimes don’t care. And so, *laughter* I feel like we can all identify with that pretty closely. Also, I should have brought this up earlier, but I wanted to tell the story, sorry to keep talking, but Genevieve, when we emailed you to appear on this show- you know, sometimes we email people out of the blue to ask if they want to come on the show. Often we do not hear back from them, which could be for any number of reasons. But in Genevieve’s case, I got the email back a day later saying, not only, “Yes, I’d be happy to come talk on your show,” but also saying, like, “I feel like on some level, I’ve been waiting for an invitation like this ever since we started doing City Grazing.” And I love this vision of somebody, like, coming home one day saying, “I got this great idea for sustainable local business. I’ve got some money lined up. I’ve got some idea- I’ve got, I’ve got some angles on some loans, and I guess all we need to do now is sit back and wait for Satan to call.”

Genevieve 1:02:47
*Genevieve laughs*

Daniel 1:02:48
I’m assuming that’s exactly how the conversation happened.

Genevieve 1:02:50
Totally. That’s exactly how it went. *laughs* I wish I could say that I had started City Grazing so that yes, I could I get absolutely confirm that, that nice little fantasy. *laughs* Unfortunately, it did not. But, it’s, it’s kind of that way. You know, one of the more appealing things about working with goats is that you’re not- never going to get bored. They will give you something you did not expect all the time. And they’re, they’re very interactive. And I don’t like for things to be predictable, and so I can see why they have their kind of demonic aspect. If you just want the farm to be as simple and easy and flowing as smoothly as possible, you don’t get goats. My mother was convinced that the goats were of the devil *laughter* because they would do these things. They would just wait until she had something beautiful, and then they’d just break out again and eat it again. And she made my dad get rid of them. She made him sell them. It was just like, “No, these animals are a problem. They can’t be around.” And, as a bored kid, I was like, “Yeah, but those are the ones that are fun.” *laughter* You know, it’s fun to watch them eat the landscaping. It’s hilarious to watch them stand on the cars. And so working with them now, you know, they, they do for all of us. They satisfy that urge to be entertained. Like, you know, sheep are really boring. They just all move together as one, they do what they’re supposed to do. Goats, it’s something new every time, and they’re always playing with each other or dancing or, you know, sliding down hills. One thing about the goats, they play. They actively, physically play, and if we put them in a location that’s got a grassy slope, they will slide down at like kids in a playground.

Simone 1:04:44
Aww.

Tabitha 1:04:44
Oh, that’s so cute, ugh.

Genevieve 1:04:46
Like, on their sides, on their backs, and if they catch people watching, they will stop. *laughter* They like to do it just for the goats.

Simone 1:04:54
I, I wasn’t doing anything.

Genevieve 1:04:54
Yeah, yeah, they, they just want the goats to see them playing. I’ve also- when we were using electrical- electrified fences, which we don’t very much anymore, they’re just not that predictable, again, goats, once they learned like, “Oh, it hurts, but it doesn’t really hurt.?” Like, they’ll just go underneath it if they want to. But when you were using them more regularly, we had a, one particular goat who would shove the other goats into the electrified fence when they weren’t looking.

Simone 1:05:00
*laughing* Oh, no!

Genevieve 1:05:23
And she would- they do this thing, when they think something’s funny where they wag their tails very rapidly. They don’t laugh out loud, but they do this, this little tail wag that’s very distinctive when they’re amused. And she would just stand at the top of the hill, shove goats into the fence when they lost their balance, and then she would just wag her tail. *laughter* She was highly entertained. Like, tell me that’s not just a little bit devilish, you know?

Simone 1:05:47
That’s so funny.

Tabitha 1:05:48
*laughing* I love it.

Simone 1:05:50
I actually wanted to kind of circle back to something real quick because in the quote from Encyclopedia.com that Daniel read is, they made mention of associations with fertility cults. Now, you know, we think of fertility, we think of, you know, rabbits, but what is the fertility of a goat? Are they particularly, um, productive?

Genevieve 1:06:14
Oh, yes, exceedingly so, and, and again, that is part of why we don’t keep any intact males around. Goats will actually if, if allowed to, they will bear their first set of offspring before they’re even fully grown. So males become viable somewhere between six and eight months.

Tabitha 1:06:37
Wow.

Genevieve 1:06:37
They’re not fully grown and- goats aren’t fully grown until they’re three years old. So they can actually kid long before it’s really healthy for them to do so. And they also have a lot of really gross behavior that starts out if you have an intact billy goat around. All of the male goats will begin peeing on their own faces. I have no explanation for this again. *laughter* Veterinary medicine cannot explain to me why male goats urinate all over their little goat beard. They just get themselves really, really stinky, and apparently, this is highly attractive to the female goats.

Tabitha 1:07:17
Ugh.

Genevieve 1:07:18
And the female goats will also then have their hormone production activated, and they will begin to fight with each other- not in that playful way that I was talking about before that they use to establish hierarchy within the herd. They begin to battle for that intact male’s attention, and they will just, like, cut each other open. They’re like, it’s, it’s like a cage fight gone bad. And so you kinda don’t want to have- it’s another reason why you don’t see billy goats kept in close proximity with the rest of a herd. It just generates really bad behavior. So their virility-

Tabitha 1:07:57
Pissing and fighting does sound like teenage punkers.

Genevieve 1:08:01
Pissing and fighting, yeah. And it’s, uh, their virility is definitely unquestioned, like, among other animals. With sheep, with cows, you don’t have that kind of behavior going on.

Simone 1:08:15
Okay, well let’s move along. And let’s talk about some more distinct associations with witchcraft and Satanism. So, you want to take this next one, why are goats associated with the devil?

Tabitha 1:08:29
‘Why are goats associated with the Devil?,’ from Slate in 2016: “‘There is nothing about goats in the Salem records or, that I can tell, in any American records of other witchcraft prosecutions,’ the famous Cornell scholar Marybeth Morton wrote. Emerson Baker, a history professor at Salem State University, co-hosted a packed screening of The Witch in Salem and considers himself among the film’s biggest fans. ‘It’s just about the best depiction of early New England that I’ve seen in a movie,’ he told me, but he too said he didn’t recall goats in North American lore or historical records. Eggers, the movie’s writer and director, conceded that Black Philip is in some ways his own special creation. ‘It’s not that I’ve not found any evidence in English witchcraft of goats playing some kind of function similar to this, but it’s just not as common,’ he said. ‘Most of the goat mythology tends to be from continental witchcraft. In England, if you were a goat farmer, you were thought of as very backwards.’ Malcolm Gaskill, a professor of early modern history, confirmed that goats play a more prominent role in European witch imagery. ‘In European engravings and paintings that depict the witches Sabbath, the devil is often depicted as a goat or goat-like man,’ he wrote.”

Simone 1:09:55
I think that’s kind of interesting is, you know, when we, the witch, is one of our favorite movies on this show for Satanic Bay Area and I think collectively amongst Satanists, but I was really surprised to learn that the association with goats and witchcraft was not as strong in North America.

Tabitha 1:10:14
Yeah, I didn’t realize that at all.

Simone 1:10:16
Yeah.

Tabitha 1:10:18
So continuing, “when did goats first become a tool of the occult? Everyone I asked pointed in different directions, including Greek mythology, biblical references, Baphomet, and rich artistic records stretching back to the Middle Ages. There is no single point of reference. But ghosts pervade many stance- strands of mythology connected to malevolent spirits. The origins may be elusive, but Gaskill offered a convincing explanation for why the link exists. ‘I guess the goat devil features so prominently in European iconography because of the horns and weird eyes.'” *laughter* Thanks, dude. *more laughter* He wrote, ‘”But also because of the association with predatory sexual potency and energy.'”

Simone 1:11:07
Well, we’ve certainly confirmed that.

Tabitha 1:11:09
Yeah.

Genevieve 1:11:11
it does smell incredibly bad. *laughter* And so if you, if you’re gonna read into like, ‘Oh my god, this is, like, hell must smell like this, like a horny goat.’ It’s kinda possible, like, it does. It’s a truly awful, awful smell.

Simone 1:11:30
I mean, I just, I find it amusing how, you know, over time, so much importance and meaning has been ascribed to these representations. But really, it just boils down to, they look weird and they smell bad.

Tabitha 1:11:45
They do what they want. They look weird. They smell bad. *laughs* They’re definitely evil. *laughs again*

Genevieve 1:11:53
And Baphomet is a really cool image. You know, it just sticks with us. It’s a great meme. It just keeps coming back.

Tabitha 1:11:59
Yeah, it’s true.

Daniel 1:12:00
Now there’s one really important contextual point that we haven’t gotten to yet, which is, here’s from a paper titled ‘The scapegoat ritual and its Ancient Near East parallels.’ I’m not going to try to pronounce the author’s name, it’s in the show notes sorry. “The ritual of cleansing the Tabernacle in Leviticus 16, which always takes place every Yom Kippur, features the ‘sent-away goat’ ritual. Aaron is to take two billy goats from the Israelites and stand them at the entrance before the tent of meeting. He places [lots] on the two goats, one for Yahweh on the other for Azazel. He brings forward the goat identified for Yahweh, which will be a sin or purification offering. The second billy goat is treated differently. Aaron shall lay hands upon the head of the live goat and confess over all of the iniquities and transgressions of the Israelites, and it will be sent off to the wilderness, thus the billy goat should carry on it all of their iniquities to an inaccessible region. He who sent off the billy goat for Azazel shall wash his han- clothes, and bathe his body in water, and after that, he may reenter the camp. Traditional commentaries throughout the ages have struggled to understand this rite-” Yeah, I’m there with ya, man. “-Which is unusual in the biblical corpus. Animal rituals, especially the Priestly texts are always, almost always sacrifices, i.e., offerings to God. The most ancient example of a sending away ritual was uncovered in the Ebla archives in modern Syria from the 24th century BCE. There a tablet describes a ritual in which an animal is sent away in order to purify the space prior to a royal wedding. Here the goat is sent out, dressed up in a decorative silver bracelet and car-” Aww, that’s nice. “-And carries with it impurity allowing the gods, and later the king and queen, to enter the mausoleum as part of the wedding ceremony. A Hurro-Hittite rite found in the archives of modern Turkey states, ‘an exorcist lets lose a number of live animals referred to as nakussis, which carry off abstract evils and by doing so, purifies the royals and the deity alike.'” So of course, this practice is where we get that term ‘scapegoat,’ and here we see that it’s quite literal. You are very literally taking all of your problems and metaphorically transferring them onto this one creature, and then disposing of it as a way of ridding yourself of those as well, but of course, we also see that the right is much more elaborate than that, that there are two goats, and that the contrast between them is apparently very critical. And, by the way, if you’re wondering what the Azazel is, we’re going to get to that in a second, although I’m not necessarily sure there is an answer. For once though, I am actually 100% sure we are pronouncing the name of that demon correctly. So, there’s- a lot of the time when people talk about the association of the Devil and goats, they will bring up this particular passage because it ties the goats directly to this idea of sin in, again, a couple of different ways here, which is intriguing.

Tabitha 1:14:47
You know, the thing that I’ve been thinking about- so I learned today that goats are really good at living on their own and can survive for a long time, so I like the idea that they kept doing this scapegoat thing and then all the, like, loose goats, like, got together and just, like, had a good time out in the wilderness.

Black Mass Appeal 1:15:04
*everyone laughs*

Tabitha 1:15:05
Thanks, Bible. *more laughter*

Simone 1:15:07
Well, do we want to get into- oh shoot. I want to say [Azayzel], but you seem pretty firm on your pronunciation, Daniel?

Daniel 1:15:17
Yes, for once, I am sure that we were pronouncing a name- how to pronounce a name on this show, and I know this because- I think we brought this up back in Episode 48 when we did the names of the devil- you’ll notice that in ‘suffix el,’ which is a word that gets translated sometimes as strength, but also sometimes refers directly to God. In fact, the- sometimes the earliest names for God in Hebrew texts is El or Elohim. Elohim might mean something slightly different its, it’s, it’s weird, but that’s why-

Simone 1:15:44
So what about- what about Kal-El?

Daniel 1:15:45
Uhh-

Simone 1:15:49
Superman.

Daniel 1:15:49
Wow, ok, you just blew my mind. Um-

Simone 1:15:52
Boom!

Daniel 1:15:53
But we- I, we brought this up earlier because you’ll notice the name-

Simone 1:15:56
Or Nick Cage’s son, whatever.

Daniel 1:15:57
Yes, you’ll notice the names of angels, always end in the ‘el’ sound: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, even the scary angels like Azrael and Samael, and so, because that ‘el’ sound always connotes that particular relationship with God, and even my name, Daniel, which an ex-Catholic, Satanist friend of mine told me means ‘judged by God,’ which I didn’t know when I picked the pseudonym but fucking yeah, okay. *Simone laughs* So yes, so you have to, it has to end on that heavy ‘el’ noise. So this- I- for once, I’m pretty sure about this one. Anyway-

Tabitha 1:16:34
We’re gonna get letters, I just want you to know that.

Daniel 1:16:36
We are going to get, we are going to get emails, I know. *laughter*

Simone 1:16:39
That just really makes me want to call you ‘Dan-i-elle.’

Black Mass Appeal 1:16:41
*Tabitha and Daniel laugh*

Daniel 1:16:41
For all I know, that’s how they said it then, I don’t know. So for an explanation of Azazel, we’re going to turn to the Jewish Encyclopedia circa 1906, which is a resource that we’ve used a lot on this show, but I can’t help it, it’s got a lot of stuff in there that’s very- you can’t necessarily find easy references to elsewhere. I do worry that being over 100 years old, this might be a little out of date, so, I don’t know, ‘at’ us if you know, so. Azazel, “the name of the supernatural being mentioned in connection with the ritual of the Day of Atonement. After Satan, for whom he was in some degree of preparation, Azazel enjoys the distinction of being the most mysterious extrahuman character in sacred literature. Unlike other Hebrew proper names, the name itself is obscure. The Rabbi’s interpreting Azazel, as ‘Azaz,’ (rugged) and ‘el’ (strong), refer to the rugged or rough mountainous cliffs of which the goat was cast down.” I’ve also sometimes heard it interpreted as rugged, being reference to the desert or the wilderness or the wasteland. Sometimes I call it- sometimes they translate this word as ‘the God of the rough places,’ or something along those lines, ‘God of the desert, the wasteland.’ “Most modern scholars, after having for some time endorsed the old view, have accepted the opinion mysteriously hinted at that Azazel belongs to the class of ‘se’irim,’ goat-like demons, jinn haunting the desert to which the Israelites were wont to offer sacrifice.” And when I read that I’m like, “the hell do you say? I, what?” Again, my mind was blown. They’re, they’re sac- they were sacrificing the goat demons? What? And then I discovered, actually- we brought this up on the show before too if you go back to the Lilith episode, number 47- and you remember that one passage from Isaiah that might mention Lilith, that also mentions the goat demons out in the desert or sometimes- we saw there were a million translations- sometimes they were goat demons or sometimes they were just goats or sometimes it said satyrs or sometimes it says night monsters or just wild creatures. This apparently is the same thing [as] the se’irim, according to the same encyclopedia- the Jewish Encyclopedia, is a “rendering by English versions of the Hebrew with Satyr, ‘he-goat,’ or ‘wild goat,’ or some of the passages just as Devil. The old versions used for- a word denoting a demon, a false god, or ‘hairy being’. It is certain that a natural animal is not intended in these passages. Thus in Isaiah- okay, here, sorry, I got ahead of myself again- Thus in Isaiah, the se’irim are mentioned together with Lilith and animals of the desert and desolate places, and are described as ‘dancing’ and ‘calling to one another.'” Now I kind of like that idea of what Tabitha just said about all the scapegoats surviving off the land and getting together to party once a year. Maybe that’s what this was, I don’t know. “In other passages they referred to as objects of worship. Possibly the versions reflect the ancient corruption of the se’irim as hairy and perhaps goat shaped beings-” I’m sorry- ancient conception as hairy and goat-shaped beings. The association of monstrous beings with ruins and desert places is still a prevalent element in the folklore of Arabia and Syria, and the Arabian jinn are also represented as having monstrous hairy forms.” So, this is weird and obscure, but it is possible that there was this long-established Jewish lore slash demonology of goats and goat demons that may or may not have been an object of idolatrous worship, which, If true, yeah, I think that might contribute to our image of Satan as goat-like, I just gotta go out on a limb there, so weird, really weird. This one I kind’ve had to, like, when I read this the first time, I just kind of sat and stared at a wall for five minutes trying to make sense out of it all.

Daniel 1:20:12
Genevieve, you said you had a scapegoat story in one of your emails?

Tabitha 1:20:16
Oh!

Genevieve 1:20:17
I do, yeah. So, a few years back, this is actually about, gosh, I think about six or seven years ago now, it’s when I first- I hadn’t been working for City Grazing for too long. And we were approached by a Jewish community group that was doing some singles mixers at the time of year that the scapegoat ritual traditionally happened. And they wanted to know if we would be willing to bring goats to these three different events that they were staging, so that people could assign their sins to living goats, in honor of this ancient tradition and- It sounded like fun. I didn’t think too much of it. I certainly- it never crossed my mind that this would have an impact on these goats’ lives. We joked about the fact that I was not going to take these goats to the desert and let them go. And as long as they were cool with that, that these goats would just be going back to their normal grazing life, sure. We could show up and make this happen. And they were fun! They were great events. And we had these three goats that we rotated through these events. They were all very healthy, young, and, and sociable goats, so that they would be more contented to be at a backyard party in San Francisco and have people coming up and touching them and whispering things in their ears. All three of those goats died within a year of these events.

Simone 1:21:53
Woah!

Genevieve 1:21:54
One-yeah. One of them, there was a, an illness that ran through the herd. It killed almost no other animals. You would expect that, at worst, this, you know, the animals that might have perished from this would have been elder goats or very young goats. Not a ridiculously healthy, two-year-old animal. So one of them died from this. One of them died from a very weird feeding incident, where she began frothing at the mouth violently, and simply died. And it happens on occasion, it’s called frothy bloat, but again, it is very strange that it would just be this one animal that would die that way. And the third, we found dead at a grazing site. Not a mark on her. No explanation. No other goats dead. Just dead.

Simone 1:22:46
Wow.

Genevieve 1:22:47
Yep. And I decided after that, that we weren’t going to do any more rituals! *laughs*

Daniel 1:22:53
Yes, good call.

Tabitha 1:22:54
I’d say.

Genevieve 1:22:56
So, there is a lot of power in ritual, and occasionally you come across it, and this was one of those occurrences. So, it’s a spooky story and it stuck with me because I’ve never really seen ritual create that profound of an impact.

Daniel 1:23:17
Okay, weird. *laughter*

Genevieve 1:23:20
*laughing* I’ll leave it up to you guys, whether you actually want to air that bit or not, like, feel free-

Simone 1:23:24
Oh, no, it’s fascinating.

Daniel 1:23:26
Yeah, no, that’s too good to leave out.

Daniel 1:23:29
One last point on Azazel, then I’ll stop talking, I promise. We have mentioned on the show previously, this time I don’t remember which episode, but of course, that is also the name of one of the prominent fallen angels from the Book of Watchers. The weird, apocryphal, Jewish text that largely- provided a lot of the framework for what would later become the Satan myth, so the fact that that one name is associated first with the scapegoats, and then later with the fallen angels is, again, possibly, part of the root of that devilish goat imagery. I would really like to do a Book of Watchers episode one of these days, but I think it came in like, fifth place on the Patreon poll last time, so probably not soon.

Simone 1:24:10
Now, we’ve mentioned before on the show, the phenomenon of the Christian religion moving into a new geographic location and the people then either trying to incorporate the gods of the native peoples or flipping them on their head and making the gods demons and, you know, encouraging their rejection. And so we kind of touched on that just a bit earlier. Now, we’ve got a little bit more here with the demonization of Pan by Kevin Hearne, in 1998. “To the Greeks, Pan was a shepherd, a thing of nature, certainly not out to corrupt and steal men’s souls. He was lusty; he played pipes and was therefore musical; and he was a god of nature. And though much is made in schools and textbooks of the major Olympian gods of Zeus and the gang, it was clear from the archaeological evidence that Pan was the favorite god of the Greek people. There are more dedications to him than to any other deity. Perhaps this is what led Christian theologians to demonize Pan. They sensed a powerful competitor in the hearts of the people. After the Council of Nicea issued the Nicene Creed and the Roman Catholic Church was established in 325 CE, Christian theologians transformed Pan from a benign nature god into Satan.” Now, okay. Let’s backtrack a little bit here. Pan. You know what Pan looks like. Pan looks like Mr. Tumnus from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Tabitha 1:25:41
Right.

Simone 1:25:43
We got the goat legs, we got some other goat-y features, but definitely a strong goat association, very strong goat look, if you will.

Tabitha 1:25:52
Yes.

Simone 1:25:53
So, continuing. Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell believes that “since Pan was ‘a phallic deity like his father Hermes, he represented sexual desire, which can be both creative and destructive.’ The Church still preaches loudly about the destructive power of sexual immorality. Since pan’s sexual nature was so evident, this might explain the Church’s readiness to hold up Pan as an example of profound moral turpitude. ‘Sexual passion, which suspends reason and easily leads to excess, was alien to the asceticism of the Christians; a god of sexuality could easily be assimilated into the principle of evil.'” And from what we heard about goats, uh, that’s a pretty strong association.

Tabitha 1:26:42
Hey, hey!

Simone 1:26:43
*laughs* Continues, “Pan’s sexuality, when combined with his unwholesome visage, thus gave the aesthetics exactly what they needed. Since he had never been attractive to begin with, and Christians were wont to associate ugliness with evil (deformations and plagues of all kinds were seen as a punishment of God), Pan became the image of the devil.” Man, that’s really judgy. Poor pan.

Tabitha 1:27:10
Extremely rude.

Daniel 1:27:11
Prior to reading this essay, I did not realize that, although I load this up, this is true that there were more dedications to Pan than to the other, seemingly more prominent gods. I guess that makes sense since Pan represents things like- First of all, he is a nature and a shepherd god, and so, you know, when you have a, a population with, with a significant farming demographic, it does make sense that they’re going to gravitate to a god like that. Also, he’s the patron of things like, you know, music, and theater, and dance and fucking. You know, things that people do like to do, so, I- he’s going to have a popular image, there. Also being a nature god, he might have been a little bit older than the Olympian gods who become more prominent later, and so he might have just had time to build up a fan base. So. I’m going to put you over there[?]. Also, is Pan unattractive? I feel like people on the internet might have opinions about that.

Tabitha 1:28:03
*laughter* Yeah, I, I, uh, cough. I have opinions.

Genevieve 1:28:08
Wasn’t Pan also the god of wine? Am I remembering this incorrectly?

Daniel 1:28:13
Uh, Dionysus-

Simone 1:28:14
I believe that would be-

Daniel 1:28:15
Sorry, go ahead, Simone.

Simone 1:28:16
I was just gonna say that.

Daniel 1:28:18
Um, yeah, so, so Dionysus is the god of wine, also the god of theater. It makes sense if you were Greek, I guess. Pan was the god of theater critics. I don’t really know why, except that being associated with Dionysus, it would make sense that if you’re looking for a god of criticism, that you would go to two gods who hang out a lot. Pan is also the only God who is supposed to have died. And, speaking as someone who’s been a theatre critic for eight years now, I refuse to believe these are coincidental variables. *laughter*

Simone 1:28:55
Now going from ancient myths to myths that are a little bit more contemporary, we’ve actually got something here from Grimm’s Gairy Tales in 1812, The Lord’s Animals and the Devils.

Genevieve 1:29:08
From Grimm’s Fairy Tales, 1812, the Lord’s Animals and the Devils. “The Lord God had created all animals and had chosen out the wolf to be his dog, but he had forgotten the goat. Then the devil made ready and began to create also, and created goats with fine long tails. Now when they went to pasture, they generally remained caught in the hedges by their tails, whereupon the devil had to go and disentangle them, with a great deal of trouble. This enraged him at last, and he went and bit off the tail of every goat, as may be seen to this day by the stump. Then let them go to pasture alone, but it came to pass that the Lord God perceived how at one time they gnawed away at a fruitful tree, at another injured the noble vines, or destroyed other tender plants. This distressed Him, so that in his goodness and mercy he summoned his wolves, who soon torn in pieces the goats that went there.”

Simone 1:30:05
That doesn’t seem very merciful to me.

Tabitha 1:30:08
Yeah, what the heck? Also, like, God, why- are you not busy? *Simone laughs* Like, you’re really distressed at some goats, eating some plants like, chill out, dude.

Genevieve 1:30:20
Those were his noble vines.

Simone 1:30:23
I feel like you should have been able to make more, but- *Genevieve laughs*

Simone 1:30:29
Why don’t you take the next, the next passage.

Genevieve 1:30:32
Okay. “When the devil observed this, he went before the Lord and said, ‘your creatures have destroyed mine.’ The Lord answer, ‘why did you create things to do harm?’ The devil said, ‘I was compelled to do it, inasmuch as my thoughts run on evil. What I create can have no other nature, and you must pay me heavy damages.’ I will pay you as soon as the oak leaves fall, come then, your money will then be ready counted out. When the oak-leaves had fallen, the devil came and demanded what was due to him. But the Lord said, ‘in the church of Constantinople stands a tall oak tree which still has all its leaves. With raging and curses, the devil departed, and went to see the oak, wandered in the wilderness for six months before he found it, and when he returned, all the oaks had in the meantime covered themselves again with green leaves. Then he had to forfeit his indeminity, and in his rage he put out the eyes of all the remaining goats and put his own in instead. This is why all goats have devil’s eyes, and their tails fitting off, and why he likes to assume their shape.”

Simone 1:31:40
So the goat does have devil eyes!

Tabitha 1:31:42
Haha!

Genevieve 1:31:44
There you go. It’s right there in the Gimm’s Brothers fairy tale.

Simone 1:31:47
Didn’t realize that Saturday Night Live was so literary. *Genevieve laughs*

Tabitha 1:31:55
I just- the Devil’s like, ‘look at these amazingly cute like animals I made.’ And God is like, ‘these are dumb and I hate them, and now I’m gonna kill them all.’ And the Devil’s like, ‘Hey, you can’t do that. I’m gonna sue you.’ And God’s like, ‘Yeah, fine. Okay, I’ll give you your money…soon [TM]. And then the Devil’s like, ‘Alright, where is it?’ And God’s like,’*annoying god chuckles* I don’t think so.’ And then, and then- that’s the goats’ fault.? *laughs*

Simone 1:32:23
I know. He’s using a loophole to get out of paying for, paying for the damages against the poor goats. Doesn’t seem right.

Tabitha 1:32:32
Yeah, God sounds like an asshole.

Genevieve 1:32:35
Yet again.

Daniel 1:32:37
I’ve got a couple things to say about this story. One, this line here where the Lord asked him why do you create things to do harm? Oh, you’re one to fucking talk. *laughter* Second of all, I find it very interesting if you look at, you know, folklorists tend to classify fairy tales and folk tales by what stories are similar, like, they assign names to groups and then, you know, usually will filter one story into one group or another. When I looked it up, this story has no group. There is no other story like this that has been recorded and is still extant. It’s a weird thing on its own. The thing that I find most interesting about this bit where the devil gets outwitted by the thing with the oak trees is there is a, kind of a sturdy subgenre of folk stories in which the devil is this, sort of ineffectual, antagonistic, trickster figure, and gets outwitted usually by a, by a saint, or, or by, you know, a humble personage. I’ve never seen it being God before, but I guess that’s not necessarily surprising. And, I remember reading once the idea that, you know, these are very, very similar, and very obviously analogous to stories in which- fairy tales in which the humble hero outwits the ogre, or the giant, or the genie, or the witch, or the sorcerer, you know, who has all of this power, but is often, kind of, easily hoodwinked by them in that way. And it’s pretty obvious that during the Christianization process of these cultures, people just took those stories and changed the hero to a saint, or in this case God, and change the villain to the Devil, and then left the story completely intact. This story kind of smacks of that in my mind. When I say I read that somewhere, I actually don’t remember. If anybody out there knows which book has that anecdote in it, please let me know, because it’s actually been driving me nuts. I’ve been trying to cite it.

Simone 1:34:26
*laughs* That’s the story of our lives, is that we’ve read so much material that, you know, some of it just floats around in there and you can’t remember where it is.

Simone 1:34:37
Okay, now. Let’s jump ahead in time to something a little bit more recent, and, so we’re going to talk about the artist Francisco Goya. Now, Francisco Goya was a Spanish painter who was born in the mid-1700s and died in the, kind of, early side of the 1800s. You have definitely seen his paintings. First of all, if you’ve seen that really creepy painting of this dude devouring a smaller dude, and his, like, arm is, is hanging in his mouth, that’s your Goya. That’s Saturn devouring his son. But, Goya also painted a lot of images of witches and, you know, they’re Sabbaths, and lots and lots of goats. So, that brings us to this article here. ‘The horror is real: Goya’s supernatural works’ by Stephen Gambardella. “There are two possible readings of Goya’s dark paintings. The literal interpretation is that Goya, aware of the stories of moral and social breakdown across Spain, was portraying the Satanism and witchcraft as a kind of 18th-century horror for his rich patrons, as titillating for them as horror movies are to us.” I do like that point. If you don’t have movies, you can have some really cool and creepy paintings around and kind of get that same feeling when you walk down your hallway. “The ironic reading of the ‘dark paintings’ is that Goya wasn’t attacking witchcraft, but rather the opposite: he was attacking the organized religious authorities that mutually buttress the ruling classes. Even more liberal interpretations of Goya’s dark paintings go as far as suggesting that his depictions of witchcraft are satires of priestcraft, and that the witches are ciphers for priests who prey on people’s superstitions and fears. Now for us, there’s something dreadful in Goya’s paintings of the Devil, not in the appearance of the goat, but rather the people masked before him.” And, just as an aside, there’s a really- one of his famous works featuring a goat has got the big, kind, of black horned goat in the center, ringed by, by people, which is, I guess, sitting around him on kind of like, a grassy knoll. We’ll go ahead and post links in the, in the show notes. But so, “the witches appear to be less than human, abjectly obedient and drunk on superstition. ‘The Great He-Goat’ is seen as a horrific satire of the slide into superstition of Spanish spiritual life. It’s telling that on the wall directly opposite The Great He-Goat, and in the same unusual dimensions, Goya painted a pilgrimage to San Isidro. In this mournful painting, a procession of pilgrims making their way to San Isidro’s Hermitage of Madrid are no better treated in paint than the witches huddled before the goat-form of the devil. The front pack of people are distorted and seemingly singing a hymn. As a procession recedes, the pack of worshippers merge with the rocky landscape.” So again, you know, we’ve talked before about how a lot of our ideas of the way that things look are slightly more modern than we might attribute them to. So, you know, the ideas about what the Devil looks like has these words roots in, as we mentioned before, in the idea of what Pan looks like, but it’s also shaped by more recent culture and then, you know, modern pop culture, so the idea of, you know, this imposing goat with his, you know, creepy followers has, has been a thread up until more modern times.

Daniel 1:38:22
I just want to say, Goya has two paintings from this period that usually get called ‘Witches’ Sabbath’ or ‘The Great He-Goat,’ and in one of them, the Devil is this dark, silhouetted goat-like figure at the far left of the frame, and he’s actually quite creepy, and the other one he’s right in the center of the frame, and is well lit and it’s a much more vivid image of this figure, and that one cracks me up every time because you could look at the expression on the Devil’s face there, he looks like he has no idea what’s going on.

Black Mass Appeal 1:38:49
*everyone laughs*

Tabitha 1:38:49
He’s like, “Um, thanks for inviting me. Why am I here?” *laughs*

Simone 1:38:54
You know, I think- someone out there is gonna correct me, but there’s a video game called ‘Layers of Fear,’ where you are walking around this really creepy house that’s sort of changing around you, and the house is owned by this painter who’s gone mad. And, you know, I forgive the video game programmers because there’s only so many paintings you want to digitize and throw into this ever-expanding house, but one of Goya’s paintings, the first one that Danny described, is one of them, so you turn around a corner, like ‘Oh! There’s that goat again. Hey, goat.” But it’s a very creepy game.

Tabitha 1:39:28
That game is so scary. *laughs*

Simone 1:39:30
You know, it was pretty scary, but then we played Outlast, so that quickly got, *laughs* got shoved away.

Tabitha 1:39:39
Outlast was scary, too. Uhh.

Simone 1:39:42
All right. Well, I know that there’s still a ton to talk about on the goat front. If we’ve left off any of your favorite anecdotes, works of art, goat facts, then just let us know- you’ll have to contact us on social media, send us an email because, you know, the- We’re always willing to talk about goats, at length. But, before we wrap up, I just kind of thought we’d go around the, the table here and see what folks’, you know, favorite thing about goats is, you know, what maybe that you’ve learned that’s new, and especially, of course, in its relation to the Devil or, or Satanism. So, Daniel, any, any parting thoughts to share?

Daniel 1:40:26
You know, one thing that I neglected to put in the notes here is, if you go to Collin de Plancy’s Infernal Dictionary, which was a, as I mentioned on the show, previously, a gift to me around the holidays from some listeners, thank you very much. And you look up the section there on not goat, but he-goat, it has an entry for, because it’s not very, necessarily the most helpfully arranged reference book you’ve ever read in your life. The entry there includes an anecdote that apparently was contemporary to the 19th century, which is that: if you boil the blood of a he-goat and splash your face with it, you will suffer violent hallucinations for the rest of the evening. And I read that-

Simone 1:41:07
Why?

Black Mass Appeal 1:41:07
*everyone laughs*

Daniel 1:41:07
and I think, yes! That was my exact reaction. Great. Thanks, Collin, why would I do that? But apparently, this was simply an accepted folkloric anecdote from the period that he felt he wanted to include in there. I particularly like this because, even though we have struggled to try to explain why there are these superstitious associations between goats and these sinister, these seemingly harmless animals, mostly harmless as Genevieve points out, maybe sometimes, they, they earned that reputation a little bit, and these very malevolent ideas and yet, if you look at history, and you look at sociology, and you look at the history of religions, there are some degrees to which yes, these, these ties make sense, but there are also some degrees to which people just believe strange things, and the why’s and the wherefore’s elude us, maybe because they are lost to time, or maybe just because it is human nature sometimes to make connections between unalike things in a way that simply do not add up for the rest of us. And I kind of like that. I think the inexplicably of these things is part of what makes them intriguing. And that, that mystery just kind of catches in your brain a little bit. So these days, we refer to that as kind of, like, meme power, you know, once something becomes common enough, it has inertia on its own, and you don’t have to think about where it comes from. A lot of things in history, I think are like that, too. Once people accept the weird thing, then it no longer matters why they believed it to begin with. So, that is my, that is my closing thesis.

Simone 1:42:44
Tab, how about you?

Tabitha 1:42:45
I would like to share an anecdote about one time when I left the Oakland Zoo. *laughs* Daniel-

Simone 1:42:52
Go on.

Tabitha 1:42:52
Daniel and I had gone to the zoo, and it was very fun. I like to see the bats. They were cute. And on our way out, when you leave the zoo you crest this hill and you kind of zigzag down it till you get down to the bottom of it. Well, Daniel’s kind of tired, he’s already starting to snooze by the time we got there, and I literally start screaming at the top of my lungs because the entire hillside is covered in goats because I’m guessing they we’re doing some kind of clear because it is all, it’s just the hill, the whole hillside’s grass, and I start screaming and Daniel kind of wakes up from a stupor, he’s, like, “what? Ahh.” *Simone laughs* He, like, thinks that the car is crashing, I’m like, “GOOOAAAATTTTS,” like as long as I can. And I am kind of almost about to run myself off the road because I was so fucking excited. And, then we got to travel down this whole hillside full of goats, and it was probably in the top ten of the experiences of my life, so that’s- it’s not really the most profound thing, but it was the most exciting goat-related excursion. *laughs*

Simone 1:43:53
Yeah.

Daniel 1:43:54
She’s not kidding. by the way. Shen she screamed, I looked around, I expected, like, a truck to be bearing down on us. *everyone laughs* That is how full-throated an exclamation she shouted at that moment.

Tabitha 1:44:06
Well, and yeah, and I’m like, “goats!”. And he’s like, “what, what?!” And I’m like, “I’m sorry, goats!. I’m really sorry I’m yelling! GOATS!” *laughter*

Simone 1:44:13
Back, gosh, a couple years ago now, I was giving a talk on Satanism at East Bay Nerd Night. And, going before me was actually somebody from the Oakland Zoo, and they were talking about their conservation efforts, and she and I were chit-chatting before the show, and, you know, everyone knew what I was there for. Because I guess I fit the bill. But, you know, I was talking to the, the nice zoo lady, and, you know, talking about the animals that they had there, and she made mention that yes, they have goats, and then she said something, like, “But I’m sure you want to sacrifice them.” And I was like, “No! No, I don’t. I like them. Goats are our friends. And then, also, *sighs* if people want to continue to associate goats with Satanism, why are we sacrificing the symbol? That’s like before a football game, you know the Colt,s like, slaughter horse on the football field- that makes no kind of sense to me. Anyway, Genevieve, any, any parting thoughts or wisdom about goats that you’d like to pass along to folks who might not know?

Genevieve 1:45:22
You know, I would encourage everyone to have the experience that Tab just described.

Tabitha 1:45:28
Yeah!

Genevieve 1:45:28
*laughs* Um, if at all possible, come visit some grazing goats, whether you are fortunate enough to encounter hundreds of goats on the hillside outside the Oakland Zoo, which happens every year. I know the people that bring those goats there, and it is a really, really, truly exhilarating site. But, you can also just come visit a City Grazing public site. Anyway that you can encounter goats, get a little feel for all of that excitement and the whimsical nature of them and their opportunistic ways. It’s, it’s a great symbol. It really is. Goats are, you know, they, I think they are as- they’re both incredibly evil and incredibly delightful all at the same time. They make my working life always fun, and always interesting, even when they’re making you crazy, *Simone laughs* breaking through fences and finding new ways to open gates. As long as they can not open padlocks, we’re still secure, so they’re not using keys yet, so we’re okay. *Tabitha laughs* But yeah, you know, it’s- they, they really are a lovely animal to spend time with, especially in they’re being less than perfect. I love that about them.

Simone 1:46:48
Now, real quick, because we just didn’t cover this in the rest of the episode, but if you, a human being, are meeting a goat, and you want to pet said goat, what is the best way for a human to approach a goat so that they’re safe and comfortable?

Genevieve 1:47:04
Great question. Let the goat smell your hand, and then, they almost all really love having their shoulder scratched.

Simone 1:47:14
Oh.

Genevieve 1:47:15
Just kind of, rather than putting your hand up over their head, which might make them shy away from you or wonder what the heck you’re trying to do their horns, reach around the outside of their body, give them a little scritch scratch on their shoulder, and then if you really feel the need, because those horns are very tempting, aa goat that has horns, you do want to put your hands on them, they are fast. So, come up their neck slowly, give them little scritches, just like you would a cat.

Simone 1:47:42
You know, again, enjoying shoulder rubs, I think that we can all relate to more than we think.

Tabitha 1:47:49
Yeah.

Genevieve 1:47:49
Right? *laughs* Yeah.

Tabitha 1:47:49
I’m also petitioning to change our, our create a tagline of ‘very evil and very entertaining’ for us.

Black Mass Appeal 1:47:58
*everyone laughs*

Simone 1:48:01
All right. Well, Genevieve, thank you again for joining us, If folks want to use City Grazing services or just find out more, where can folks find them online?

Genevieve 1:48:11
Citygrazing.com.

Simone 1:48:14
Perfect.

Genevieve 1:48:15
That’s our website, and if you just google ‘San Francisco goats,’ we will show up. We’re really easy to find online.

Simone 1:48:22
Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us.

Genevieve 1:48:25
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Simone 1:48:29
And if you want to get in touch with us about goats, or any other devil thing, you can always email us at Blackmassappealpod@gmail.com. The website is Blackmassappeal.com, and you can find us on most social media platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram as Black Mass Appeal.

Daniel 1:48:47
If you want to find out more about Satanic Bay Area, check us out at Satanicbayarea.com. Find us on Facebook, on Instagram as Satanic Bay Area, or you can follow us on Twitter, the handle there is @satanicSF. In the past, you could have come on down to Wicked Grounds coffee shop for Satanic Coffee Hour on the third Thursday of every month, but for obvious reasons, that is on hiatus. instead, pay attention to our Google Calendar and our social media to find out when we are having our next online meeting via Jitsi. And Tabitha, next time we do that, what are we going to be having?

Tabitha 1:49:18
Copious amounts of alcohol!

Black Mass Appeal 1:49:21
*Simone and Daniel woo*

Daniel 1:49:22
That sounds like an excellent plan. And that also sounds like a great note to say ‘Hail Satan’ on, are we ready?

Tabitha 1:49:29
Yeah, let’s do it.

Daniel 1:49:32
3-2-1-

Black Mass Appeal 1:49:33
Hail Satan!

Tabitha 1:49:35
*goat sounds*

Black Mass Appeal 1:49:37
*Sound of Music’s ‘The Lonely Goatherd’ plays*

The post Episode 76 – Scapegoats appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.