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• UNHOLY ROSARIES

• From Geometric Symbols & Divine Proportions, Douglas C. Youvan, 2024: The pentagram is one of the earliest geometric symbols used by human civilizations, with its origins traced back to Mesopotamia around 3000 BCE. In Sumerian and Babylonian cultures, the pentagram was often inscribed on clay tablets, amulets, and other artifacts. The pentagram was associated with directions and the known world, often used to represent the five regions of the earth or the five visible planets—Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn—each of which was associated with a particular god in the Sumerian pantheon. The points of the pentagram were thought to correspond to these celestial bodies, symbolizing the unity of heaven and earth in a single, harmonious design. This use of the pentagram reflects the early Mesopotamian belief in a cosmology where the earthly and the divine were inextricably linked. In Babylonian culture, which inherited much of Sumerian symbolism, the pentagram was also linked to cosmological and astrological concepts to symbolize the movements of the planets and their influence on earthly affairs. The pentagram’s five points may have been seen as a symbol of the cyclical nature of the universe, with each point representing a different phase of a celestial cycle. This interpretation aligns with the Babylonian understanding of the cosmos as an ordered system governed by divine laws.

• As Christianity began to spread in the early centuries of the Common Era, the pentagram found new meanings within the context of Christian symbolism. In early Christian art and literature, the pentagram was used to represent the five wounds of Christ—two on the hands, two on the feet, and one on the side— inflicted during his crucifixion. This association gave the pentagram a deeply sacred significance, symbolizing Christ’s sacrifice and the redemption of humanity through his suffering. In addition to representing the wounds of Christ, the pentagram was also associated with the five senses, which were seen as gifts from god that allowed humans to experience and appreciate the divine creation. The use of the pentagram in this context reflected early Christian beliefs about the sanctity of the human body and the importance of maintaining spiritual and physical purity. The pentagram was also employed as a protective symbol in early Christian communities, believed to have the power to ward off evil spirits and to protect the wearer from harm. This protective use of the pentagram may have been influenced by earlier pagan practices, where the pentagram was seen as a powerful talisman against negative forces.The pentagram’s use as a Christian symbol gradually declined as the cross became the dominant symbol of Christianity. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Douglas-Youvan/publication/383214202_Geometric_Symbols_and_Divine_Proportions_The_Pentagram_Hexagram_and_Their_Religious_Significance_Across_Cultures/links/66c28591145f4d3553663e40/Geometric-Symbols-and-Divine-Proportions-The-Pentagram-Hexagram-and-Their-Religious-Significance-Across-Cultures.pdf 

• • From A Slip of the Tongue In Salutation, Lucian, 2nd Century CE: The admirable Plato would have us reject the salutation Joy altogether; it is a mean wish, wanting in seriousness, according to him; his substitute is Prosperity, which stands for a satisfactory condition both of body and soul; in a letter to Dionysius, he reproves him for commencing a hymn to Apollo with Joy, which he maintains is unworthy, and not fit even for men of any discretion, not to mention gods. The divine Pythagoras, although he did not see fit to leave us any writings of his own, still, as far as can be judged from the writings of his disciples and other companions, did not begin letters with the traditional ‘be joyful’ or ‘do well’, but exhorted them to begin with ‘be healthy’. All of his followers, at any rate, in writing letters to each other, when they were writing something serious, would exhort (each other) to be healthy at the very beginning, as the thing most fit for the soul and the body. And their pentagram, drawn to each other in five lines, which they used as a token for the like-minded, was called ‘health’ by them. They believed that doing well and being joyful were wholly part of being healthy, but not that being healthy was entirely part of doing well or being joyful. Some also called the tetractys — their greatest oath, which for them completes the perfect number — the beginning of health. And it was true wisdom, in my opinion; that all other good things are worthless if health is wanting. 
  • From The Witch, Ronald Hutton, 2016: The distinctive contribution made by Christian Europe to the magical tradition seems to have been geometric: the use of the consecrated circle as the normal venue for a magical operation, with special significance often given to its four cardinal directions, and the identification of the pentagram as the most potent symbol of magic. Pentagrams are found in ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek and Roman art or on coins, and also in the Christian early Middle Ages, but without any single tradition concerning their meaning and use: in many contexts they seem simply to have been decorative. There is no real evidence that the pentagram had any special association with magic in the ancient world. It appears once on a warrior’s shield painted on a Greek cup, which may have reflected a belief in its protective qualities…or it may just have been a decorative star. The most careful study of its ancient significance concludes (reluctantly) that its wide distribution in ancient times may have been ‘simply a question of decorative motif, with or without any particular meaning. The magic meaning of the pentagram was not yet apparent before the later Middle Ages. 

• As soon as Western Europeans acquired complex ceremonial magic in the twelfth century, seemingly as the result of their translation of Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic texts, they showed their preference for the pentagram, and it was especially associated with Solomon, the wisest of biblical kings, who had been reimagined in the late antique period as a mighty magician. The Sworn Book of Honorius, from its earliest surviving manuscripts of the fourteenth century, put the pentagram at the centre of the ‘Seal of God’ which was the most important work in the achievement of the divine vision. The pentagram also penetrated popular culture, as it appears in many parts of Western Europe by the end of the Middle Ages, on houses, cradles, bedsteads and church porches, as a protective symbol. The reasons for the new importance of the design are easy to propose: One of the prime concerns of the considerable intellectual ferment of Western Europe in the twelfth century was the reconciliation of ancient learning with creative literature, Christian beliefs, and study of the natural world. Honorius asserted that the human body is constructed on a base formed by the number five, having five senses, five limbs (including the head) and five digits on hands and feet. This made the pentagram an obvious symbol of the microcosm that the human form represented, of the divine image in which it had been shaped. 

• From Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, Anonymous, 14th Century, Translated by JRR Tolkien: Then they brought him his shield that was of brilliant jewels, with the pentagram depicted in pure hue of gold. By the baldric he caught it, and about his neck cast it: right well and worthily it went with the knight. And why the pentagram is proper to that prince so noble I intend now to tell you, though it may tarry my story. It is a sign that Solomon once set on, a figure that in it five points holdeth and each line overlaps and is linked with another, and in this way it is endless; and the English, I hear, name it the Endless Knot. So it suits well this knight and his unsullied arms, forever faithful in five points, and five times under each, Gawain as good was acknowledged as gold refinéd, devoid of every vice and with full virtues adorned. So there the pentangram painted new he on shield and coat did wear, as one of word most true and knight of bearing fair. Faultless was he found in his five senses, and in the five fingers he failed at no time, and firmly on the Five Wounds all his faith was set that Christ received on the cross, as that Creed tells us; and wherever the brave man into battle was come, on this beyond all things was his earnest thought: that ever from the Five Joys all his valor he gained that to Heaven’s courteous Queen Mary once came from her Child: free-giving and friendliness first before all, and chastity and chivalry ever changeless and straight, and piety surpassing all points: these perfect five were hasped upon him harder than on any man else, fixed at five points that failed not at all, coincided in no line nor sundered either, not ending in any angle anywhere. Therefore on his shining shield was shaped now this knot, royally with red jewels upon red gold set: this is the pure pentangle as people of learning have taught. 

• From Medieval Mythbusting Blog, James Wright, 2021: In a recent post on the online forum Mediaeval and Tudor Period Buildings, a user uploaded a photograph of a five-pointed star carved onto a piece of stone at St Mary & St John (Somerset), and asked the deceptively simple question: “Would anyone know what this symbol might mean? If we discard the facetious suggestions by amateur comedians (18.7%), the remaining people had explanations which included: pagan symbol, holy star, Star of David, Satanic symbol, graffiti associated with boredom, builder’s sign to show structural problems, Seal of Solomon, mechanism to express proportional geometry, hobo mark, Knights Templar, Freemasonry or Illuminati symbol, etc. Some of the more outlandish identifications – including signs left by the Knights Templar, Freemasons or Illuminati – can perhaps be laid at the door of Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code, where Robert Langdon, a Harvard professor in the fictional discipline of “symbology,” intones: “The pentacle is a pre-Christian symbol that relates to Nature worship. The ancients envisioned their world in two halves— masculine and feminine… This pentacle is representative of the female half of all things— a concept religious historians call the ‘sacred feminine’ or the ‘divine goddess.” The pentagram IS a pre-Christian symbol, but in that period it was not associated with the attributes assigned by the fictional Langdon. His explanation seems to more closely align with the thinking of magical practitioners from the late nineteenth century onwards. This went on to influence later neo-pagan and Satanic beliefs. 

• Prior to the introduction of Christianity the pentagram was a symbol variously associated with the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar or Greek notions of health, wellbeing or geometrical purity. However, these explanations do not bear much relevance to how the symbol came to be carved on the walls of a parish church in Somerset. So, what is going on here? In the theology of mediaeval western Christianity, god gave King Solomon a seal ring which had the power to repel demons. This story was originally told by the Jews and, in their iteration, and as the story of the ring passed down through the Abrahamic faiths, the ciphers were subsequently re-interpreted by Arabic Muslims as a six-pointed star and European Christians as a five-pointed star. The mediaeval Christian belief that the pentagram was a powerful repellent of evil was apparently widespread. A reliance on such iconography can also be seen, physically, in fourteenth century ecclesiastical architecture – including pentagrams set out in the great west window of Exeter Cathedral and on the tower at Hannover. The pentagram has been noted as a motif found during historic graffiti surveys of mediaeval buildings. At one site a pentagram has been carved directly over a graffito of a demon – perhaps explicitly linking the symbol to its perceived function of warding off evil. Although the pentagram was an important shape in Classical theories of proportion, its use in mediaeval architectural design was rare. Consequently, when we encounter regular, chisel-cut examples of the pentagram, the symbol is less likely to be part of an architectural drawing and will often be a stonemason’s mark.

• From the Oral Talmud, Gittin 68, Third Century CE: Why was it necessary for Solomon, the author of Ecclesiastes, to gather demons? The answer: As the temple was being built, Solomon said to the sages: How shall I make it so that the stone will be precisely cut? They said to him: There is a creature called a shamir that can cut the stones, which Moses brought. Solomon said to them: Where is it found? They said to him: Bring a male demon and a female demon: It is possible that they know where, and they will reveal the place to you. Solomon brought a male demon and a female demon and tormented them together, and they said: We do not know where to find the shamir. Perhaps Asmodeus king of the demons, knows. He is on such-and-such a mountain. He has dug a pit for himself there, and filled it with water, and covered it with a rock, and sealed it with his seal. And every day he ascends to Heaven and studies, but he comes back and checks to ensure that nobody has entered his pit, and then he uncovers it and drinks from the water. Solomon sent for Benayahu, a member of the royal entourage, and gave him a chain onto which a sacred name of god was carved, and a ring onto which a sacred name of god was carved. What did Benayahu do? He went down the mountain, drained the water, and poured wine into the pit. When Asmodeus came and found the pit to be filled with wine. He said that it is written: “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is riotous; and whosoever wallows in it is not wise, I will not drink this wine.” But when he became thirsty, he was unable to resist the wine and he drank, became intoxicated, and fell asleep. Benayahu threw the chain around Asmodeus, and when he woke Benayahu said to him: The name of your master is upon you, the name of your Master is upon you, do not tear the chain. And they brought him to Solomon after three days. 

• From Transcendental Magic, Eliphas Levi, 1854: The pentagram signifies the domination of the mind over the elements, and by this sign are enchained the demons of the air, the spirits of fire, the phantoms of the water, and ghosts of earth. Equipped with this sign, you will be ministered unto by legions of angels and hosts of fiends. Spirits are subservient to this sign when employed with understanding, and, by placing it in the circle or on the table of evocations, they can be rendered tractable. The intelligence of the wise man therefore gives value to his pentacle, as science gives weight to his will, and spirits comprehend this power immediately. Thus, by means of the pentagram, spirits can be forced to appear by themselves or their reflection, which exists in the astral light. Pregnant women are influenced more than others by the astral light, which concurs in the formation of the child, and perpetually offers them reminiscences of the forms which abound therein. This explains how it is that women of the highest virtue deceive the malignity of observers. The Kabbalistic usage of the pentagram can therefore determine the appearance of unborn children, and an initiated woman might endow her son with the characteristics of Nero or Achilles as much as with those of Louis XIV or Napoleon.

• We must, however, remark that the use of the pentagram is most dangerous for operators who are not in possession of its complete and perfect understanding. The direction of the points of the star is in no sense arbitrary, and may change the entire character of the operation. At this point, let the ignorant and superstitious close the book ; they will either see nothing but darkness, or they will be scandalised. The pentagram, which, in gnostic schools, is called the blazing star, is the sign of intellectual omnipotence and autocracy. It is the star of the magi ; it is the sign of the Word made flesh; and, according to the direction of its points, this absolute magical symbol represents order or confusion, the divine lamb of  St John or the accursed goat of Mendes. It is initiation or profanation; it is Lucifer or Vesper, the star of the morning or the evening. It is Mary or Lilith, victory or death, day or night. The pentagram with two points in the ascendant represents Satan as the goat of the Sabbath ; when one point is in the ascendant, it is the sign of the Saviour. The pentagram is the figure of the human body, having the four limbs, and a single point representing the head. A human figure, head downwards, naturally represents a demon ; that is, intellectual subversion, disorder, or madness. Now, if magic be a reality, if occult science be really the true law of the three worlds, this absolute sign, this sign ancient as history, and more ancient, should and does actually exercise an incalculable influence upon spirits set free from their material envelope.

• From the Golden Dawn, Israel Regardie, 1940: The Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram: Take a steel dagger in the right hand. Face east. Touch thy forehead and say (thou art). Touch thy breast and say (the Kingdom). Touch thy right shoulder and say (and the Power). Touch thy left shoulder and say (and the Glory). Clasp thy hands before thee and say (forever). Dagger between fingers, point up in the air towards the east and, bringing the point of the dagger to the centre of the pentagram, vibrate the deity name, imagining that your voice carries forward to the east of the universe. Holding the dagger out before you, go to the south, make the pentagram, and vibrate similarly the deity name. Go to the west, make the pentagram, and vibrate. Go to the north, make the pentagram, and vibrate. Return to the east and complete your circle by bringing the dagger point to the centre of the first pentagram. The Uses of the Pentagram Ritual include as a form of prayer: The invoking ritual should be used in the morning, the banishing in the evening. The names should be pronounced inwardly in the breath, vibrating it as much as possible and feeling that the whole body throbs with the sound. Also as a protection against impure magnetism: The banishing ritual can be used to get rid of obsessing or disturbing thoughts. Give a mental image to your obsession and imagine it formulated before you. Project it out of your aura with the saluting sign of a Neophyte, and when it is about three feet away, prevent its return with the Sign of Silence. Now imagine the form in the east before you and do the Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram to disintegrate it, seeing it, in your mind’s eye, dissolving on the farther side of your ring of flame. It can also be used as an exercise in concentration. Seated in meditation or lying down, formulate yourself standing up in robes and holding a dagger. Put your consciousness in this form and go to the east. Make yourself “feel” there by touching the wall, opening your eyes, stamping on the floor, etc. Begin the ritual and go round the room mentally vibrating the words and trying to feel them as coming from the form. Finish in the east and try to see your results in the Astral Light, then walk back and stand behind the head of your body and let yourself be reabsorbed.’

• From The Purpose of Your Altar Pentacle, Sable Aradia, Patheos, 2018: I make and sell altar pentacles at my Etsy store.  I started doing this several years ago because I noticed that you couldn’t find them anywhere.  There was a plethora of wands, numerous chalices, and even a handful of athames available at most metaphysical stores in the late eighties and early nineties, and there were hundreds of silver jewelry pentacles available, but pentacles intended for your altar were nowhere to be found.  At the time I chalked that up to the Satanic Panic; the pentacle is the most obviously “Wiccan” of the four traditional altar tools, and big pentagrams made people nervous. I was taught that there is a difference between a pentagram and a pentacle, though a dictionary will often give them as synonyms: a pentagram is an equilateral five-pointed star, and a pentacle is such a star within a circle, or a similar object used in magic, such as the Earth Pentacle used by the Golden Dawn and various of the Seals of Solomon. Typically Wiccans and witches use the upright pentacle, and Aleister Crowley made use of the inverted pentagram in Thelema.  The association with the Horned God of Wicca in the inverted pentagram is largely due to tradition, stemming from the Goat in the Star from The Key of Black Magic, an 1897 grimoire. This was [incorrectly] thought to be a secret symbol of the Templars in their (alleged) secret worship of Baphomet.  The pentacle is usually placed at the center of the altar; and some books will tell you to place objects on it when you’re consecrating or enchanting them because you’re using it as a focus to direct all of those energies into your sacred and magickal work; manifesting the powers of the gods and the cosmos into physical reality. Sometimes the pentacle is used as a tangible, magical shield to protect you against danger and attack.  Just as vampire hunters in all the movies present crosses to the Undead boldly in order to drive them away through the power of faith, witches can aim their pentacles boldly against psychic attack. This is a simple method of calling upon the gods and the Universe to lend their formidable powers to your protection. You could use it as a focal point for meditations that make use of the pentagram; such as the Iron Pentacle or an elemental pathworking; you could hold it aloft towards Venus at sunset or sunrise to invoke the Goddess, Lucifer, or any goddess associated with Venus; you could hold it to your body with a point directly facing the ground to invoke the Horned God. It is a holy symbol of the powers of the Universe coming together, a celebration of the integration of spiritual and material. 

• From Satanism Today, James R Lewis, 2001: Richard Ramirez, better known as the Night Stalker, was a sadistic serial murderer who terrorized the Los Angeles area in the mid-1980s. He was captured by civilians on August 31, 1985, following an all points bulletin in which his mug shot was broadcast on television and printed in newspapers. After a fourteen-month trial, he was convicted of thirteen murders and thirty other felonies. A self-identified Satanist who had read Anton LaVey’s Satanic Bible, Ramirez’s crime spree was one of the few cases that might legitimately be called “Satanic crime.” His “calling card” was the inverted pentagram, which he left drawn on a wall, or, in one case, carved into the body of a victim. In 1983, he made a special trip to San Francisco to meet LaVey personally. LaVey was later reported as commenting that, “I thought Richard was very nice—very shy. I liked him.” Because Ramirez was a fan of the rock group AC/DC—a group that at one stage of their career adopted Satanic imagery and incorporated infernal references into their music—the case was given special attention from people concerned about the negative influence of rock music. Ramirez would engage in such antics as flashing a pentagram he had drawn in the palm of his hand, shouting “Hail Satan!” and holding up his fingers alongside his head in imitation of devil’s horns. It is clear that Satanic ideology is not an independent motivating factor that somehow transforms otherwise nice people into criminals. Rather, as reflected in the remarks Ramirez made at his sentencing, such individuals are criminals who adopt Satanism as a way of justifying their antisocial actions. Many police officers ask what to look for during the search of the scene of suspected satanic activity. The answer is simple: Look for evidence of a crime. A pentagram is no more criminally significant than a crucifix unless it corroborates a crime or a criminal conspiracy. If a victim’s description of the location or the instruments of the crime includes a pentagram, then the pentagram would be evidence. But the same would be true if the description included a crucifix.

• From No Converse Didn’t Replace Its ‘All-Star’ Logo with a Satanic Symbol, Bethania Palma, Snopes, 2021: In July 2021, Christian news outlets reported that sneaker brand Converse had replaced the iconic “All-Star” label on its shoes with a satanic symbol. “Converse Unveils Designer Shoes with Satanic Symbol Replacing Brand’s Star Logo,” Faithwire reported. “More Corporate Satanism: ‘Converse’ Unveils New Occult Shoe Line,” the Media Research Center reported. Converse hasn’t replaced the All-Star logo, which famously adorns its classic Chuck Taylors. The new symbology is instead the result of a collaboration between Converse and DRKSHDW, the brand run by goth-inspired fashion designer Rick Owens. The logo for DRKSHDW contains a pentagram, or five-point star. A spokesperson for Nike, which owns Converse, told Snopes in an email: “Converse’s collaboration with fashion designer Rick Owen’s DRKSHDW brand incorporates the DRKSHDW pentagram logo design, which has been used in his line for many years. The pentagram, which has many different associations, is in no way a comment from Converse on religion, nor does it replace the iconic All Star logo on our shoes.” In an Instagram post promoting the brand collaboration, Owens explained why he uses the pentagram in his own work: “I’ve been using this pentagram for a long time because obviously, it has adolescent occult associations. But I like geometric diagrams like that because, in a very primal way, they are a culture’s grasp for control. And a way to organize thoughts and systems. And a pentagram, in this day and age with all of its associations… I like the fact that it refers to an alternative system. And that suggests openness and empathy. It suggests the pursuit of pleasure, this pursuit of sensation. But one of the main things that I think it suggests is empathy and a consideration of systems of living that might not be standard. So that leads us to be more accepting and tolerant of other systems, which I think is a good thing.” 

The post Episode 205: Oops, All Pentagrams Edition appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

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• • From Revelation 17-18, King James Version: And he saith unto me, the woman which thou sawest is a great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and god hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
  • From Notes on the New Testament, Albert Barnes, 1830s: “How much she hath glorified herself,” meaning been proud, boastful, arrogant. This was true of ancient Babylon, that she was proud and haughty; and it has been no less true of the mystical Babylon that is Rome. “And lived deliciously,” ie, by as much as she has lived in luxury and dissoluteness, so let her suffer now. The word used here and rendered “lived deliciously” in the Greek is derived from the noun which is used in Revelation 18:3, and rendered “delicacies.” It means  “to live strenuously and rudely,” as in English, “to live hard”; and then to revel, to live in luxury, riot, and dissoluteness. No one can doubt the propriety of this as descriptive of ancient Babylon, and as little can its propriety be doubted as applied to papal Rome. This word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament and may also be rendered as “luxury,” or “proud voluptuousness”; and the reference is to such luxuries as are found commonly in a great, a frivolous, and a splendid city. These, of course, give rise to much traffic, and furnish employment to many merchants and sailors, who thus procure a livelihood, or become wealthy as the result of such traffic. Babylon or Rome is here represented under the image of such a luxurious city; and of course, when she falls, they who have thus been dependent on her, and who have been enriched by her, have occasion for mourning and lamentation. It is not necessary to expect to find a literal fulfillment of this, for it is emblematic and symbolical. The image of a great, rich, splendid, proud and luxurious city having been employed to denote that anti-Christian power, all that is said in this chapter follows, of course, on its fall. The general idea is, that she was doomed to utter desolation, and that all who were connected with her, far and near, would be involved in her ruin.
  • • From Entertaining Satan, John Demos, 1983: The grasping quality attributed to witches comes through again and again in court testimonies. A witch would start by asking for what she wanted but, when rebuffed, would not hesitate to resort to stronger means.Envy, like “discontent,” was directly associated with the process of becoming a witch. Potential recruits were plied with “fine promises”: for example, “money, silks, fine clothes, ease from labor” for Elizabeth Knapp) a chance to be “big rich” for Mary Staples; to “live deliciously” for one unidentified boy, or to “go where there were fine folks” for Katherine Branch); even “an husband” and a guarantee against death for Mercy Short).  According to Cotton Mather, the Devil was acutely alert to signs of envious wish : “There is no condition but what has indeed some hunger accompanying it; and the Devil marks what it is that we are hungry for, [whether] preferments or employments, cash or land or trade, merriments or diversions, the Devil will be sure to suit his persuasions accordingly.
  • From Robert Eggers Explains ‘Butter’ and ‘Living Deliciously’, David Crow, Den of Geek, 2019: Before Robert Eggers’ The Witch became the toast of the Sundance Film Festival and earned him a Best Directing Award, he was a first-time filmmaker trying to get an indie horror movie out into the world. During that post-production process, he did test screenings, and time and again he received the same note: Why butter? Why a pretty dress? “That was a pretty consistent note, so I kept trying to find something better,” he says. There was just one thing the director couldn’t get past: “Those were things the devil actually promised.” Or at least they were things those pressured into confessing to witchcraft claimed were their greatest wishes. “What struck me as I read through the reams of Salem depositions was how a young boy is asked, ‘Well, what did the devil promise you? Why did you make covenant with the devil?’ And he says in complete innocence, ‘I wanted a pair of shoes.’” He also points to the story of Elizabeth Knapp, a Puritan teenager who in 1672 was believed to be possessed by the Devil. Said Eggers, Beginning with complaints of physical pain, Knapp eventually displayed convulsions, laughing fits and “hysterics,” and hallucinations. After seeking a medical solution, her employer Samuel Willard eventually concluded Knapp was possessed by the Devil, and pushed her to confess that she had been assaulted by the Dark One before making a pact with him and letting him into her bed. Willard, a minister, asks Knapp, ‘What does the devil mean to you?’ ‘Well, he’s going to take our ashes from the fireplace.’ “You fall over laughing when you see this, but you realize this is a fifteen-year-old-girl who’s sick to death being a domestic slave.” Eggers eventually compared Knapp’s likely sorrowful plight to that of Thomasin in The Witch. While Thomasin lives with her family, she is treated with suspicion and loathing and her mother wishes to rid the farm of Thomasin and sell her into servitude to another family. “Tking the ashes out seems silly or mundane, but it’s so… sad,” Eggers reflected on the Knapp case in comparison to The Witch. https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/the-witch-explains-butter-living-deliciously/ 
  • From The Witch: The Complete Guide, Novum, YouTube, 2024: And now we come to probably the most famous scene in the film, not just because it has a  talking goat. We begin with this  sound of bells ringing in the dark; bells are traditionally used to ward off witches, the devil, evil spirits and so on. I actually think this might be meant to allude to the goat  bells we’ve heard previously, only made more mystical sounding now the farm is somewhat overrun by this satanic presence. The blood around Thomasin’s mouth and spilled on her chest is very in line with the trope of the fallen women that we see so often and reminds us of Eve biting into the forbidden fruit, an indicator of unfeminine desire for violence and consumption. Thomasin’s sin is revealed to be Greed, she wants to live deliciously, she wants to sample  all the delights of life. This should be unsurprising as it has roots in this ‘night demoness’ archetype that Thomasin is in the process of embodying, of vampirism, inverted motherhood, twisted desire, and fears regarding female emancipation. She is, in every sense, the fear of what women would be without religion. The question “What does thou want?” should have been easy to answer, but Thomasin is directionless and doesn’t  necessarily know what to even ask for. She replies “What cans’t thou give?” and we can and should read this as indicative of Thomasin’s inexperience, she doesn’t know what the ceiling is on what she can ask of the Devil, but it’s also indicative of an ‘I want it all’ attitude, I’ll take everything you’re offering. 
  • The taste of butter and a pretty dress are cribbed from actual, or alleged, incidents  from witch trials–to quote Robert Eggers “things that the Devil actually promised.” For a couple of centuries the eating of butter had  been considered a sin within the Catholic church, something that actually catalysed the Protestant reformation in its own small way. The most famous line in the film  “Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?” And This offer of living deliciously makes  her immediately say yes. She leaps on it. Thomasin only really bites at this offer to live a grander, more delicious life, to gorge on earthly delights in every sense she can. So much of the film is rooted in consumption. Thomasin tells him that she cannot write her name and he says ‘I will guide thy hand’. This could well be a reference to the phrase “your hand will guide me” from Psalm 139, which refers  essentially to god’s loving care. But primarily this is demonstrating how consent is working: Thomasin may not know how to write her own name,   but she is eager to do it. The Devil can’t force her to do it but he can guide her in how. This issue of consent was very important in  Puritan witch trials. Cotton Mather wrote: “In the case of Witchcrafts we know that the Devil is the immediate Agent in the Mischief done, so the consent or compact of the Witch is the thing to be demonstrated.” So it’s crucial that while Black Phillip is willing to help her hold the quill and show her how to write, this isn’t a scenario she can be forced into. Coerced but not forced.  This is her soul and her decision.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEYgVnKUiRY&t=281s 
  • From Satanism and Feminism in Popular Culture, Miranda Corcoran, 2025: The relationship between woman and the devil is arguably even older than the Satan myth itself. When we say “relationship” we mean that pretty literally, as our modern concept of Satan probably stretches back to Second Temple Jewish myth and the stories of the mysterious Watchers angels who were seduced to sin and vice by the comeliness of mortal women in the Book of Enoch: These dalliances between mortal and immortal beget evil, violence, war, and even a race of cannibalistic giants. In the end, the disobedient angels are cast into everlasting fire. At face value, Enoch seems to put fault on the male-coded Watchers, but it didn’t take long for misogynist preachers and church fathers to implicate the womenfolk. In The Testament of Reuben, a mostly apocryphal second century text, Reuben, son of the Israeli patriarch Jacob, preaches that women “allured the Watchers” and warns, “women are evil, and by reason of their lacking authority or power over men, they scheme treacherously.” Mind you, Reuben is most famous for stealing his father’s concubine and getting cut out of his will, so we might wonder who asked him to begin with? But not to worry, because Reuben has corroboration from “the angel of the lord,” who assures him that “women are more easily overcome by the spirit of promiscuity.” Reuben seems to have rarely been overcome with the spirit of self-awareness himself, but we’ll let that lie for now. 
  • The Watcher story went out of favor in time, replaced by the now-famous Eden myth, with Eve seduced by a mouthy serpent as an alternate origin for worldly evil; naturally, popular preaching cast Eve, and by extension women generally, as tools of wickedness, often barely differentiated from the Satanic serpent; as dusty old second century Roman preacher Tertullian put it: “And do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of god on this sex of yours lives in this age: […] You are the devil’s gateway […] the unsealer of that forbidden tree. You are the first deserter of the divine law.” That sounds pretty metal to us, but apparently Tertullian meant this as a bad thing? Religion is confusing. When European witch scares kicked into high gear in the 15th and 16th centuries, witch-hunting weirdos were quick to frame witches as sultry feminine temptresses who were quite literally seduced by the devil through diabolical orgies with attendant demons. In a typically unironical example, Italian philosopher Gianfrancesco Mirandola wrote in 1523 that devils ensured the loyalty of witches by way of their “virile members,” which apparently were of quite remarkable proportions and “filled up the most secret parts of the witches”–and we’ll just pause for the reader to add their own editorial comments here. As Neil Forsyth points out in his book The Old Enemy, “blaming women is an uncomplicated solution for men suspicious of their own sexual needs.”
  • From I Await the Devil’s Coming, Mary MacLane, 1902: Now I feel and I want things and I know it with burning vividness. I want Fame more than I can tell. But more than I want Fame I want Happiness. What would I not give for one day, one hour, of that charmed thing! None of the other fools desires Happiness as I desire it. I am ready and waiting to give all that I have to the Devil in exchange for Happiness. I have been tortured so long with the dull, dull misery of Nothingness—all my nineteen years. I want to be happy—oh, I want to be happy! The Devil has not yet come. But I know that he usually comes, and I wait him eagerly. I am fortunate that I am not one of those who are burdened with an innate sense of virtue and honor which must come always before Happiness. They are but few who find their Happiness in their Virtue. The rest of them must be content to see it walk away. But with me Virtue and Honor are nothing. I long unspeakably for Happiness. And so I await the Devil’s coming. The Devil has given me some good things—among other things—my admirable young woman’s body, which I enjoy thoroughly and of which I am passionately fond. A spasm of pleasure seizes me when I think in some acute moment of the buoyant health and vitality of this fine young body that is feminine in every fiber. “It is good,” I think to myself, “oh, it is good to be alive! It is wondrously good to be a woman young in the fullness of nineteen springs. It is unutterably lovely to be a healthy young animal living on this charmed earth.” There are persons who say to me that I ought not to think of the Devil, that I ought not to think of Happiness—Happiness for me would be sure to mean something wicked; that I ought to think of being good. I ought to think of God. These are persons who help to fill the world with fools.”
  • From How Ethical Hedonism Plays Into Theistic Satanism, Chia Satana, Satanic Spirit, 2018: Embracing ethical hedonism has brought me closer to Satan. The definition of hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure and sensual self-indulgence. People think of the pursuit of pleasure as immoral, corrupt, and sinful, but ethical hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure but with personal ethics involved. Ultimately, I decide which pleasures are okay to indulge in and to what extent I can indulge. Religions often shame people for pursuing pleasure, especially the worldly pleasures. Have you ever heard of good food described as “sinful”? Satan wants us to enjoy life, he wants us to experience pleasure without the fetters of guilt or shame. Pleasure is one of the many gifts Satan gives humanity, one of the things that makes life worth living. Pleasure isn’t the only thing to live for, but it’s an important component in life. I make pleasure a priority in life because it makes me feel good, not just pleasures like lust and food, but also the smaller pleasures such as funny memes or time with friends. Worldly pleasures are here for us to enjoy, not avoid; so long as each person involved consents to the activity and the activity itself is carried out in a safe manner, hedonism is ethical. 
  • Admittedly, not all pleasures are ethical: Some pleasure causes harm and has negative consequence, and I acknowledge that there are pleasures that can harm you if you indulge too much. This is where ethics comes in to decide what/how much I can eat without harming my health. Don’t get me wrong: I still eat too much, but I’m trying to work on eating healthier. I know eating healthy will bring me pleasure because I’ll get to enjoy the benefits of health, and this will lead to more pleasure. The pursuit of pleasure is a highly personal thing: Nobody should feel guilty over indulging in pleasures like consensual sex or laughing at an enemy’s expense. Satan helps free me from this unnecessary shame over experiencing and valuing pleasure in life. He also helps me appreciate these pleasures more since I believe Satan, as the true creator, made these pleasures for us to enjoy. I thank Satan for the gift of pleasure every day. Ultimately, only you can decide your personal ethics surrounding pleasure. I think my life is a happier place with both ethical hedonism and Satan involved in it. I find that the more I embrace Satan, the more of an ethical hedonist I become.
  • From the Satanic Revelation, Allison P, 2013: And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And after these things I saw another infernal Spirit come up from Hell, having great power; And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is risen, and is become the habitation of Devils, and the hold of every infernal Spirit and the dominion of those who kept Satan’s covenant! For all nations have drunk of the wine of the pleasure of her fornication, and the Kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from Hell, saying, go into her, my people, that ye be partakers of her wisdom, and that ye receive of her joys. For the great works of men have reached unto Heaven, and even the enemy hath remembered her glory. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are given to thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are imparted to thee, and thou shalt find them forevermore. For in one hour so great riches is come. Rejoice over her, the victorious, for the Lord Lucifer shall deliver you to her. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_xsXutOpIO9wzwlH7I73s1ZcZVehLn65UCHmEJ-uH2E/edit?tab=t.0 
  • From To Live Deliciously, Cradle of Filth, 2025: Velvet incantations, standing ovations from the stalls The torturous stage is a bountiful harvest To which we stay in thrall We wish to live deliciously in this garden of delights, We wish to live deliciously enraptured, bedight, We wish to live deliciousl, in this sea of paradise, We wish to live deliciously, enchanted, enchanted. Greatest expectations, enemy nations, all shall fall to a future wherein peace remains the rule. Behold the golden dawn: Our world reborn to a sworn horizon, as from the grip of winter’s siege, we prise ourselves to rise again, to live deliciously. We expire, best never wait lest these ecstatic fires burn as dreams evaporate. Just one stretch above, so run amok and thunder far in lust and utter bliss, embark: We wish to live deliciously, in this garden of delights, we wish to live deliciously, enraptured, bedight, we wish to live deliciously in this sea of paradise, we wish to live deliciously, enchanted, free to every vice. Forget redemption, for the time is rife to face the day and empower the night, to revel disheveled in the chaos of life, embracing the playful and the slayful knife.

The post Episode 196: Living Deliciously appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

For our first Halloween season offering, Atun-Shei Film’s Andrew Raikich talks religion, race, and recreancy in his new Satanic historical thriller “The Sudbury Devil”–a Satanic faith-based film.

SHOW LINKS

• Atun-Shei Films
• Most Satanic Film of All Time Preys On Our Fears
• King Philip’s War, Boston College of History
• Myths & Legends of Our Own Land, Charles Skinner
• Narrative of the Captivity of Mary Rowlandson
• The Rabble & Flower of Essex County, Kyle Zelner
• A True & Exact History of Barbados, Richard Ligon
• James Burroughs: Salem’s Perfect Witch, Emerson Baker

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The post Episode 153 – The Sudbury Devil appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

The devil has many names and many faces, but which one truly inspires our lack of faith? We’re pitting standout Satans head-to-head and horn-to-horn in our playoff-style Satan Bowl to crown the most enlightened Prince of Darkness. Plus, to celebrate our sin-tennial, we open the show with a complete Black Mass!

SHOW LINKS

• Watch our Black Mass on YouTube!
• BMA: The Drawn Devil
• BMA: History of Baphomet
• BMA: The VVitching Hour
• BMA: Silver Screen Satan
• BMA: The Omening
• BMA: Satan In the Bible
• BMA: A Merry Little Krampus
• BMA: Doom
• BMA: Lilith Fare
• BMA: Satanists Read the Bible II
• BMA: Scapegoats
• BMA: Paradise Lost
• BMA: Faustus
• BMA: The Highgate Vampire
• BMA: Names of the Devil II

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• Coffee Hour is the third Thursday of every month from 6 – 8 pm at Wicked Grounds in San Francisco!

The post Episode 100 – Satan Bowl (and Black Mass!) appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

It’s a very special video episode of Black Mass Appeal, the podcast that brings Modern Satanism to the masses! In this episode, we celebrate the third anniversary of the podcast with something different: a trivia game! Simone Lasher runs three rounds of Satanic trivia, as cohosts Daniel Walker and Tabitha Slander take on teams of listener contestants.

Praise, condemnation, questions, and your team’s answers can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.

TRIVIA QUESTIONS!

(Scroll down for answers at the bottom of the page.)

ROUND ONE: SATAN

1. In Dante’s Inferno, who was Satan munching on in the icy Ninth Circle? (Three points)
2. In the book of Revelation, how many heads does the “the beast from the sea” have? How many crowns? (Two points)
3. Most folks know the “number of the beast” in Revelation is 666. What’s the alternative number that is sometimes given as the “number of the beast”? What person is this number thought to represent? (Two points)
4. In the Book of Job, God issued two conditions before allowing Satan to fuck with Job. What were they, in order? (Two points)
5. In Paradise Lost, Book 1, Satan is the first character to speak. Who answers him (and is the second character to speak)? (One point)
6. Embarrassingly few women have played the devil in film. Name one. (One point)
7. A mosaic in the Basilica of Sant’Apollinare Nuovo in Ravenna, Italy, is thought to be the first depiction of Satan in art. What’s unusual about this Satan? (One point)
8. How many times is the name “Lucifer” mentioned in the Bible? (One point)
9. Name the actor who played Black Phillip (in human form) in the movie The Witch. (One point)
10. Name the goat who played Black Phillip (in goat form) in the movie The Witch. (One point)

ROUND TWO: SATANISM

1. Name Anton LaVey’s three children. (Three points)
2. TST’s Baphomet statue was designed for installation at what state capitol… and was later used at a protest at what other state capitol? (Two points)
3. In 1975, Michael Aquino left the Church of Satan and performed a ritual where Satan revealed to Aquino his true name. What was it? (One point)
4. The United Aspects of Satan follows the “Baphomet Principle.” What is it? (One point)
5. What sect of Satanism, founded in 2009, is known for their “11 Neoteric Guidelines”? (One point)
6. What is the sixth tenet of the Satanic Temple? (One point)
7. Jex Blackmore, former spokesperson for the Satanic Temple, is now an independent activist and artist. What was the name of her 2019 art exhibit in Chicago? (One point)
8. The United Aspects of Satan’s holidays are feasts celebrating certain “aspects” of Satan. The feast that aligns with the winter solstice in December is the feast of whom? (One point)
9. What was the last book written by Anton LaVey, which was released the year following his death? (One point)
10. Why does the Order of Nine Angles suck? (One point)

ROUND THREE: BLACK MASS APPEAL

1. One of the events leading up to the formation of Black Mass Appeal was Simone writing an email about Satanism — and having it read on-air — to what other major podcast? (One point)
2. Apple recently changed the name of its podcasts app, leading to great confusion when trying to read the reviews. What was the original name of the app, and its new name? (Two points)
3. In 2019, BMA guest John Romero (Episode 46) released a “new episode” (or “megawad”) of his classic video game Doom. What was the title of this new episode? (One point)
4. Name another podcast that the BMA hosts have appeared on. (One point)
5. Former BMA guest, director Penny Lane (Episode 45), has 12 documentary directing credits. Name one of her films OTHER than “Hail Satan?” (One point)
6. Give the first names of the two primary members of the band Twin Temple (who were guests on Episode 43). (Two points)
7. Who has been on Black Mass Appeal the most as a guest? (One point)
8. Members of what Michigan-based Satanic group appeared on episode 52 to share their experience going to a Bob Larson exorcism? (One point)
9. What day of the week do new episodes of BMA drop? (One point)
10. What’s the country that was once inexplicably left in a show sheet and sends the hosts into fits of giggles when mentioned? (One point)

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ANSWERS

ROUND ONE: SATAN

1. In Dante’s Inferno, who was Satan munching on in the icy Ninth Circle? (Three points) Judas Iscariot, Marcus Junius Brutus, and Gaius Cassius Longinus.
2. In the book of Revelation, how many heads does the “the beast from the sea” have? How many crowns? (Two points) 7 heads, 10 crowns.
3. Most folks know the “number of the beast” in Revelation is 666. What’s the alternative number that is sometimes given as the “number of the beast”? What person is this number thought to represent? (Two points) 616, Emperor Nero.
4. In the Book of Job, God issued two conditions before allowing Satan to fuck with Job. What were they, in order? (Two points) 1. You cannot harm him physically. 2. You can harm him physically, but you can’t kill him.
5. In Paradise Lost, Book 1, Satan is the first character to speak. Who answers him (and is the second character to speak)? (One point) Beelzebub
6. Embarrassingly few women have played the devil in film. Name one. (One point) Elizabeth Hurley, Bedazzled; Jennifer Love Hewitt, Shortcut to Happiness; Rosalinda Celentano, The Passion of the Christ; Angelica Huston, Seraphim Falls. Will accept Emmanuelle Seigner (as The Girl), The Ninth Gate.
7. A mosaic in the Basilica of Sant’Apollinare Nuovo in Ravenna, Italy, is thought to be the first depiction of Satan in art. What’s unusual about this Satan? (One point) He’s wearing blue (not the stereotypical red).
8. How many times is the name “Lucifer” mentioned in the Bible? (One point) Once.
9. Name the actor who played Black Phillip (in human form). (One point) Daniel Wahab Chaudhry.
10. Name the goat who played Black Phillip (in goat form). (One point) Charlie.

ROUND TWO: SATANISM

1. Name Anton LaVey’s three children. (Three points) Zeena, Karla, and Satan Xerxes.
2. TST’s Baphomet statue was designed for installation at what state capitol… and was later used at a protest at what other state capitol? (Two points) Oklahoma City and Little Rock, AR.
3. In 1975, Michael Aquino left the Church of Satan and performed a ritual where Satan revealed to Aquino his true name. What was it? (One point) Set.
4. The United Aspects of Satan follows the “Baphomet Principle.” What is it? (One point) Self-motivation balanced with compassion and reason, in all things.
5. What sect of Satanism, founded in 2009, is known for their “11 Neoteric Guidelines”? (One point) Church of Rational Satanism.
6. What is the sixth tenet of the Satanic Temple? (One point) “People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.”
7. Jex Blackmore, former spokesperson for the Satanic Temple, is now an independent activist and artist. What was the name of her 2019 art exhibit in Chicago? (One point) Sex Militant.
8. The United Aspects of Satan’s holidays are feasts celebrating certain “aspects” of Satan. The feast that aligns with the winter solstice in December is the feast of whom? (One point) The Feast of Ba’al.
9. What was the last book written by Anton LaVey, which was released the year following his death? (One point) Satan Speaks! (I’ll begrudgingly accept Letters from the Devil, 2010.)
10. Why does the Order of Nine Angles suck? (One point) Because they’re fucking Nazis that’s why.

ROUND THREE: BLACK MASS APPEAL

1. One of the events leading up to the formation of Black Mass Appeal was Simone writing an email about Satanism — and having it read on-air — to what other major podcast? (One point) My Favorite Murder.
2. Apple recently changed the name of its podcasts app, leading to great confusion when trying to read the reviews. What was the original name of the app, and its new name? (Two points) iTunes, Apple Podcasts.
3. In 2019, BMA guest John Romero (Episode 46) released a “new episode” (or “megawad”) of his classic video game Doom. What was the title of this new episode? (One point) Sigil.
4. Name another podcast that the BMA hosts have appeared on. (One point) Bizarre States, Naked Diner, Sacred Tension, Let’s Be Omnist.
5. Former BMA guest, director Penny Lane (Episode 45), has 12 documentary directing credits. Name one of her films OTHER than “Hail Satan?” (One point)
   1. Nellie Bly Makes the News (Documentary short)
   2. Hail Satan? (Documentary)
   3. The Pain of Others (Documentary)
   4. Normal Appearances (Short)
   5. Just Add Water: The Story of the Amazing Live Sea-Monkeys (Documentary short)
   6. Nuts! (Documentary)
   7. Our Nixon (Documentary)
   8. The Voyagers (Documentary short)
   9. The Commoners (Documentary short)
   10. Sittin’ on a Million (Documentary short) (co-director)
   11. The Abortion Diaries (Documentary short)
   12. We Are the Littletons: A True Story (Documentary short)
6. Give the first names of the two primary members of the band Twin Temple (who were guests on Episode 43). (Two points) Alexandra and Zachary James.
7. Who has been on Black Mass Appeal the most as a guest? (One point) Brigid Breed, SBA member. (Episodes 6, 7, 10, and 16). Followed by Detryck Von Doom (3 shows).
8. Members of what Michigan-based Satanic group appeared on episode 52 to share their experience going to a Bob Larson exorcism? (One point) Satanhaus.
9. What day of the week do new episodes of BMA drop? (One point) Tuesday.
10. What’s the country that was once inexplicably left in a show sheet and sends the hosts into fits of giggles when mentioned? (One point) Greece.

The post Episode 78 – Third BMAnniversary Video Show appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.

We’re horning in on the lives of some of our favorite farmhouse familiars by taking a closer look at our good friends the goats. As anyone who’s spent time down on the farm with Black Phillip knows, our friends the goats have always reminded us to live deliciously. But why have billygoats gotten such gruff treatment from the public, who seem to always want to associate them with the devil? Here to help us forage over some of the history, we have Genevieve, executive director of City Grazing in San Francisco.

Praise, condemnation, questions, and punny nicknames can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.

SHOW LINKS

• Lilith and Uruk’s Home Fund – Go Fund Me
• Posters claiming ‘increased Satanic Cult activity’ in the San Bernardino National Forest deemed fake
• City Grazing
• Wiley Online Library: Goat domestication and breeding: a jigsaw of historical, biological and molecular data with missing pieces
• PBS: The Story Of… Goats
• Encyclopedia.com: Sheep and Goats
• Slate: Why Are Goats Associated With the Devil, Like Black Phillip in The Witch?
• How the Devil Got His Hooves and Horns: The Origin of the Motif
• TheTorah.com: The Scapegoat Ritual and Its Ancient Near Eastern Parallels
• The Jewish Encyclopedia: Azazel
• Azazel/Book of Watchers
• The Demonization of Pan
• Grimm’s Fairy Tales, 1812, “The Lord’s Animals and the Devil’s”
• The Horror is Real: Goya’s supernatural works hide terrible truths about Spanish history

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• Coffee Hour is the third Thursday of every month from 6 – 8 pm at Wicked Grounds in San Francisco

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Simone 0:04
Welcome to Black Mass Appeal, a podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on Black Mass Appeal, we’re horning in on the lives of some of our favorite farmhouse familiars by taking a closer look at our good friends, the goats. Also, in the news, satanic cult rumors in California are ‘missing the forest’ for the trees and Satanic Bay Area has a new Halloween treat planned for everyone. Joining me today I’ve got Daniel.

Daniel 0:35
Hi, my name is Daniel. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area and I’m a member of the Satanic Temple. And, say, Why are goats such bad shots?

Simone 0:43
Why?

Daniel 0:43
Because they only graze you. And I had to record that twice. So I would like to think that Simone and Tabitha were much more exasperated with me the first time.

Simone 0:54
No, no, I think it was still pretty effective the second time.

Tabitha 0:57
*Groans*

Simone 1:00
Well, also joining me today is Tabitha.

Tabitha 1:04
Hey, this is Tabitha. I am an administrator for Satanic Bay Area and sometimes I like to cross bridges and kick the shit out of trolls. It’s just what I do. You can call me gruff if you want to. I don’t give a fuck.

Simone 1:18
Joining us later in the show will be Genevieve, of City Grazing. Until then you’ve got me, my name is Simone. I’m an administrator for Satanic Bay Area. And I think that goats are the G.O.A.T., the greatest of all time. If you were the greatest goat of all time, you’d be the good goat, I think.

Tabitha 1:36
Kiss the good goat.

Black Mass Appeal 1:38
*Tabitha and Simone laughing*

Simone 1:39
Alright, Black Mass Appeal is a product of Satanic Bay Area and not associated with any other Satanic groups. This is a podcast for Satanists to discuss modern Satanism, its history, left-leaning political activism, and how Satanism relates to current events and pop culture. We’re for people who want to learn more about modern Satanism, whether you’re a newbie or already involved in Satanic groups. And speaking of Satanic groups, well, the pandemic and Shelter-in-Place drags on, but we still have something fun coming up.

Daniel 2:11
That’s right. Everybody’s Halloween plans are really up in the air this year still, but we do have one big plan for Halloween. That is still going to pan out regardless of the situation with public health in your locality. Tabitha, what do you want to tell people about what we’ve got cooking in our witch’s cauldron Halloween-analogy-transition.

Tabitha 2:33
*laughs* Are you- are you done? Or you wanna- you got a couple more words in there?

Daniel 2:42
Sorry, my brain has to reboot sometimes…[unintelligible]

Tabitha 2:44
It’s okay, I understand. So, we are finally doing our third chick tract. It is called “I Remember Halloween,” and it is going to be all about those great hell houses that I’m sure some of you, as soon as you heard me say the word hell house, got very upset. They’re these great things that Christian people like to do to scare children into believing in Jesus. So of course, we got one flipping it’s on its head and it’s going to be freakin amazing. And I’ve been working really hard on it. Daniel, you wrote it, and I have been drawing and drawing and drawing, and then, you know, trying not to freak out because the world’s ending, and then drawing more. It’s been a good time. *laughs*

Daniel 3:31
Yes, since Jack Chick wrote so many anti-Halloween tracts, and since those tracts are among his weirdest, his funniest, and his most ironically popular, it made sense. We were planning all along to do a kind of a pro-Halloween tract, but it took a while to figure out what that should consist of, and actually the hell house gimmick was a- gave us a really good idea. We’ve talked in the past about doing a Hell House episode – maybe we will someday – I think we’re handicapped by the fact that none of us have been to a Hell House and I certainly don’t want to pay to go to one. Uhm-

Tabitha 4:03
Well, I sort of went to one.

Daniel 4:05
Oh, yeah, you told that story on the show before you had like the- the Hell House 4D immersive theater experience. If anybody can, like, smuggle us into a Hell House for free, let us know. Because I don’t think we want to monetarily support that, but we do want to do the gawking anthropological research of being there.

Simone 4:27
Can we just say we’re anthropologists, or will like the league of real anthropologists come and be mad at us?

Tabitha 4:33
Yeah- you don’t want to find out.

Daniel 4:35
You don’t want to cross the league. So our plan is to send this one to the printer September 1st, so that we can start doing pre-orders at the beginning of September and start taking, uh, post-pre-orders? I guess those are just regular orders.

Simone 4:51
Just orders?

Daniel 4:52
Yeah, a couple weeks into September, and that way we’ll have them shipping out to you, you know, by the early October. Of course, we expect this one will probably be still popular after Halloween, but we want to hit that window.

Daniel 5:05
Um, I do also want to say-

Simone 5:07
It’s our holiday shopping season, we can’t miss our own Black Friday.

Daniel 5:10
That’s true. Uh, these make great stocking stuffers for when you leave your stocking out for Satan on Halloween Eve. Uhm- I do want to say one thing I’m really proud of- we did the first Chick tracks three years ago now, and we crowdfunded that. It was a very successful campaign- I’ve never done crowdfunding before. Um, and in fact, it went, we- that went so well, that we ended up with some money left over to produce the second tract, which we did, you know, the next year. And then I figured at that point, it’s like, okay, so we want to do a third one, we’re going to have to do another crowdfunding campaign sometime. But when it came time to actually put the money together for this, we realized that, uh, sales of previous tracts as well as, you know, everything else that we’ve done since then, have been so robust that it’s, like, oh no, we can just finance this ourselves. And I know that’s a small thing, but at the same time, it’s a nice, it’s a really great feeling to hit that kind of, like, bare minimum self-sustaining benchmark. Um- because, you know, I don’t know, it’s, it’s a couple of years ago, I would not have said we would have been able to do that with these. And so, uh, thank you very much to everybody who has, uh, who has any of them in their possession.

Simone 6:24
I mean, the support that we’ve gotten for the show, the support that we’ve gotten for Satanic Bay Area, and the support that we’ve gotten for the chick tracts, in particular, has been absolutely amazing and overwhelming, and the generosity of the initial kickstarter, the generosity of the people who are Patreon contributors, and the folks who are, you know, just buying and either having and giving out the current existing chick tracts has allowed this to become a self-sustaining venture, so, uh, we look forward to this new track and many tracks to come.

Tabitha 6:59
Tracks forever! Wee!

Simone 7:02
Well, before we get to more Patreon, let’s actually go to our Apple podcast reviews. So, um, if you want to leave a review for the show, it’s really helpful no matter what platform it’s on. Although, we read from the Apple podcast reviews because they’re the easiest and most plentiful, but by reviewing the show, you do get to raise the profile of the show for folks who are, you know, looking for it, who are searching. And also, you know, word of mouth, tell your friends.

Simone 7:32
So, let’s go ahead and we’ll start with Flumenstellarum, who says “Love, love, love this podcast. Never did the whole podcast thing until this one. I’m in a small town and I feel like I don’t have a whole lot of options for exploring Satanism with other people, but this podcast helps. I want to move out to somewhere with more like-minded people, but I can’t yet. I hope to visit someday- see y’all and converse about our boy Satan, but till then I’ll be your fan. Suggestion: The titles of song clips would be nice. I’m putting together a Satan-adjacent songs playlist.” Well, Flumenstellarum, just listen carefully: we don’t use song clips on this show. Wink. But if you wanted to search for Black Mass Appeal, in the music part of Spotify, there might be a playlist of songs that, uh, we really like on this show. Wink.

Tabitha 8:36
Songs that if we had music on the show, we would put in.

Daniel 8:41
But we don’t.

Tabitha 8:42
We don’t at all.

Simone 8:43
So we all, we all, we all get each other, right? Okay, cool.

Tabitha 8:46
Yeah.

Simone 8:48
Next up is a review from someone who’s calling themselves, I’m hungry and a problem, which-

Tabitha 8:54
Big same. Relatable. *laughs*

Simone 8:57
Yeah. Mood. *laughs*

Simone 8:59
Uh, the title of their review is just, uh, a series of the, the horn hands. They say, “I’m an agnostic Satanist and a minor, in a rural conservative area, so it can feel pretty lonely sometimes. This podcast is fun and informative to listen to, but it also gives me a- wait for it- community! I just found it a few weeks ago, but I’ve binge listened to at least 10% of the episodes. Thanks for making this show.”

Simone 9:26
Well, thank you for listening. Clearly, you’re somebody I can relate to- I’m hungry and a problem. You know, we, we don’t really talk about this, we haven’t really talked about this on the show a whole lot before. But, um, when it comes to working with minor people, people who are under the age of 18 in the United States, you know, for a Satanic Bay Area, we, um, you know, for myriad reasons, members of Satanic Bay Area do have to be of the age of majority. It’s for legal reasons, liability reasons. Also, just literally, Wicked Grounds does not allow people under 18, as, um, some of our friends who have an infant child found out, unfortunately. But when it comes to listening to the show, you know, people of all ages have the ability to find us.

Simone 10:14
And so, um, you know, we use a lot of swears, sorry about that. But, yeah, you know, and, um, on the Discord, we do have, uh, a designation for folks who are under the age of 18, so they could still participate in a safe and limited way. We just don’t want to ever be perceived as proselytizing, or of quote, unquote, ‘brainwashing children,’ but you seem like quite the, uh, mature and intelligent young person. So, thank you for listening.

Daniel 10:47
I also want to say as somebody who also was a minor in a rural conservative area for many years, you can get through this, I promise. I want to do like, I want to do like an “it gets better” video, but just for, like, kids in small towns who can’t stand it. There is a future out there, I promise.

Simone 11:05
*laughs* Okay, and our last one comes from Remy Voodoo who says, “New favorite podcast. I started listening this month. Love it. I’m currently on episode 17. I got a long way to go, but I’ll enjoy every minute of it. Hail Satan.”

Simone 11:21
What episode is Episode 17?

Daniel 11:24
That’s the music one.

Simone 11:25
Oh yeah, another one that we might need to get back to at some point.

Daniel 11:30
I think that episode is actually a great example of how one of the ways we’ve done this show has changed over the years. I don’t think we would ever do a topic that broad to tackle in a single episode, uh, today. *laughter* Not that that’s not a good show, I think it is, but at the same time, like, you know, it’s just our, our, our bearings are radically different now. Uh, which makes me curious what Remy will think listening to the rest of the episodes going forward.

Simone 11:55
Yeah, we, we know better, we know about, uh, how long-winded we are. How off-topic we can get, so.

Tabitha 12:00
Yeah-

Daniel 12:02
On that note, speaking of past episodes, I went back to listen to a show. It was actually Episode 33 about Satan in the Bible, and, like, I skipped ahead and, like, at the 15 minute mark, we still haven’t gotten to the main topic. Like, ‘fuck, what were we doing that day? What was going on?’ *laugher*

Daniel 12:22
It was so weird. So, those people who complained that the first act of the show takes too long might have been on to something at one point. *Simone laughs*

Tabitha 12:32
We’re trying!

Simone 12:32
*laughs* All right, well, yeah, in the interest of moving things along, uh, let’s talk about Patreon. So, Patreon is the means by which, uh, we get to run the show. It’s also the means by which we get to fund cool stuff like the chick tracts, like other Satanic Bay Area projects, and that gives us the ability to, uh, donate to charity on a regular basis, which, uh, we’re really thankful for. So, we have some new contributors to thank. First of all, we’ve got Michelle Martin. And then in the Satanic Mini Beast Club, those are the folks who, uh, are contributing $3.33 per month. We’ve got Satanic Brat, and D Mendez. Then the Mark of the Beast Club, which is $6.66 per month. We’ve got, Brodeseus92, Luke Fomley, Puppy Cat Midi, and Tracy, who is an upgrade.

Daniel 13:29
Thank you so much to everybody who backed the Patreon. Thank you so much to everybody who’s contributed to Patreon in the past. I want to say one thing, by the way, on Patreon when people stop being your patron, oftentimes Patreon will ask why, and if you look over the list of people who have unsubscribed to us over the years, almost always, like, well over 99% of the time people just say, uh, my financial situation changed anymore. I can’t-I just can’t afford it right now, and, like, that’s great. Uh, it’s very, it’s very, very encouraging that very rarely was it somebody who had an issue with the show, or with our Patreon itself. What I’ve noticed in the last couple of months is a lot of people leaving notes saying that they’ve lost their job or their livelihoods, been affected because of the public health crisis. And I just want to say to all of those people, thank you so much for your support in the past. Thank you so much if you’re still listening to the show, we hope that things get better for you. We hope that you’re able to come back to the Patreon again in the future, but that’s not the important thing. The important thing is that you’re looking out for yourselves and that everybody is getting through this, so I want to give an extra Hail Satan, to everyone out there who, like some of us also on this show, have had their lives and their livelihoods changed by what’s going on right now. So, we are all in this together, separately.

Simone 14:46
*laughs* Yeah. I mean, we are so grateful that you ever even considered to support us in the past or at all- that we completely understand and if you are able to come back in the future, sweet. If you want to just keep listening, also sweet. We just want to make sure that y’all are okay.

Tabitha 15:06
Yeah, the listening is the important part, right? *laughs*

Simone 15:10
And again, telling your friends is free.

Tabitha 15:12
Yeah.

Simone 15:13
So- but speaking of, uh, Satanic community and, you know, being there for each other, we do have a special shout out. Former guest of the show, Lilith Starr, former Head of Satanic Temple Seattle, her and her partner, Uruk suffered a really devastating loss a couple of days ago, as we, as we tape this. Lilith and Uruk’s home was, uh, damaged by fire, you know, burned and there is a GoFundMe to help them, to get back on their feet. There will be a link in the show notes and, you know, it’s already raised above the amount of money that was the goal, but fuck it. I mean, these are really incredible people who are vital to the Satanic community. Lilith is the author of “The Happy Satanist,” a book that I know has really affected a lot of people’s lives, and this is an opportunity to say thank you and we support you. So, if you are able, go to our show notes, find the link to their GoFundMe, and, you know, pitch in, if you’re able.

Daniel 16:23
Lilith has appeared on the show a couple of times in the past. She’s been a big supporter of ours. We met her a few years ago when we were up in Seattle for a couple of days. She was extremely gracious, she’s a great friend, and she’s an excellent Satanist, and people who are fans and followers of hers knows that she struggles to make ends meet sometimes because she is disabled. And this fire, fortunately, the good news is it did not burn their unit. So they did not lose all their possessions, but the building is condemned and the reason for this crowdfund is to help them put together some funds for, for moving expenses because we all know it costs a lot to move even when you are moving because of dire necessity. So, again, we know a lot of people are in tough spots right now, so if you can’t help, that’s fine. But anybody who’s able to put even- and contribute even a little bit, uh, consider doing it because, you know, um, it is, it is a very good cause in this case.

Simone 17:14
All right. Well. Let’s go ahead. We’ll take a break, and we will come back with the news.

Black Mass Appeal 17:32
*interlude music*

NEWS

Tabitha 17:34
*old-timey breaking news sound*

Simone 17:35
Those doots mean something. They mean, it’s time for the news!

Tabitha 17:40
Yay!

Simone 17:41
So today, our news story is titled, “Posters claiming, ‘Increased Satanic cult activity’ in the San Bernardino National Forest deemed fake.” “‘Someone has been putting up signs about Satanic activity in the San Bernardino National Forest,’ authority said on Thursday while putting those rumors to bed once and for all. Forest officials reassured the public that there are no known threats of Satanic nature to visitors in the forest. The posters claim that camping isn’t advised in the area due to, ‘increased Satanic cult activity in the area.’ It also said that several animals were reportedly sacrificed as a part of the Satanic rituals and that several people have gone missing in the area. ‘That is not an official Forest Service sign and there is no known threats of this type to visitors,’ the San Bernardino National Forest wrote on Twitter. Anyone with information about who is posting the signs was asked to call, 909-383-5651.” Yeah, and tell them, you know, tell them who’s actually doing it. It’s not Satanists.

Tabitha 18:54
*laughs* That’s so bizarre.

Simone 18:58
You know? Again, we don’t sacrifice animals. We don’t sacrifice people. Like, why? Why? Why is this the go-to prank? Is it a prank? Is someone, like, trying to, like, get someone in trouble? Is it they think it’s funny? I don’t- who knows?

Tabitha 19:18
I mean, do they think it’s true?

Simone 19:21
I don’t even know, man.

Daniel 19:23
Somebody on Twitter suggested this is somebody’s way of trying to get some of those campgrounds to themselves.

Simone 19:29
Ooh-

Tabitha 19:30
So, the Scooby Doo villain way. *laughter*

Daniel 19:35
Two things that I’ll say about this. First being that, you know, sometimes they will have these service warnings. They’ll say there’s a fire watch. They’ll say there’s a bear watch. I almost kind of like the idea, ‘Yeah, we got a Satan watch in place, uh, in the North part of the state today for next week. We, we, we got some extra heavy devil cult activities. I just, you know, we’re reassuring- it’s, it’s, it’s not a warning. It’s just an advisory we may upgrade to a warning, you know, as, as, uh, the variables develop.’

Tabitha 20:07
Satanic level is orange. *laugher*

Simone 20:10
Yeah, I was gonna say like if we had our own color code system as, like, you know, low level green is, like, you’ve just got some kids in black clothes hanging about. Yellow is, like, when their clothes actually have, like, a pentagram on them. Orange is when you see, like, a dead chicken on the ground? I don’t know, what, what would be red? Like, actual beheaded people?

Tabitha 20:32
Satan is- has arrived. *laughs*

Simone 20:35
Satan is fully- he’s fully there.

Tabitha 20:37
Corporeal Satan.

Black Mass Appeal 20:40
*Simone and Tabitha laughing*

Daniel 20:40
‘Our Washington bureau has reported that the Pentagon is currently at Devil Con 3, thank you.’ *laughter* The other thing I’ll say is that for the last two weeks, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about the Satanic Panic for reasons that we may discuss on the show in the future, but not right now.

Simone 20:59
Hmm-reasons.

Daniel 20:59
And reading these flyers I was amazed at kind of how retro they felt. Like, there are of course Satanic conspiracies today, we’ve talked about them back in Episode 18 and 40, but, like, they don’t, you know, they have a vibe all of their own. Like, it’s- that medium has progressed. Whereas these again feel almost like, almost like throwbacks, so I was very curious about what kind- it, it gives the impression that the person who made these notices are almost very naive in a weird way, you know, so. I assume this was their attempt at a prank and maybe they’re just uh, uh, maybe they’re not up on who their marks are. I don’t know. Weird.

Simone 21:40
Yeah, I mean, like, the current, the current Satanic Panic thing is all QAnon bullshit with pictures of Chrissy Teigen photoshopped into a still of the movie, uh The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover. This is old school. This is old school, it’s on paper, even.

Tabitha 21:58
Weird.

Simone 21:58
Posted you know, with tape on, on trees and shit. So-

Daniel 22:02
It’s almost refreshing in how, in how old-fashioned it is. *laughs*

Simone 22:05
Yeah!

Tabitha 22:06
Except for the littering.

Daniel 22:09
Yeah.

Simone 22:09
Oh, yeah. I’m sure the forest rangers loved this prank.

Daniel 22:14
You think Chrissy Tiegen would do the show?

Simone 22:17
You know, at this point- *laughs*

Daniel 22:20
What does she got to lose, right? *laughs*

Simone 22:22
Yeah, I was going to say she, she had a show on Quibi, and, uh, that show was- that whole network was fucking damned from the beginning, so who knows. Okay, let’s go ahead, we’ll take a break and we’ll come back with the main topic. Hey Tab, you want to hit us with that goat noise?

Tabitha 22:40
*bleats* I gotta do it again.

Tabitha 22:30
*continues bleating*

Black Mass Appeal 22:36
*Interlude music*

MAIN TOPIC

Tabitha 22:37
*Intros in with bleat*

Simone 23:00
As anyone who’s spent time down on the farm with Black Phillip knows, our friends the goats have always reminded us to live deliciously. But why have billy goats gotten such gruff treatment from the public who seem to always want to associate them with the devil? Here to help us forage over some of the history, we have Genevieve, the Executive Director of City Grazing in San Francisco. Genevieve, thank you for joining us on Black Mass Appeal.

Genevieve 23:26
Thanks, Simone. Thanks for inviting me.

Simone 23:29
Now, I know that this request to come on the podcast is probably a little bit of an odd one, so tell us what City Grazing typically does.

Genevieve 23:39
Well, City Grazing is a nonprofit based in San Francisco. We have a mission of sustainable land management and we facilitate that through goat grazing. So, mostly what our goats are doing all day is taking their typically devilish behavior and turning it into the heroic pursuit of reducing fire hazards.

Simone 24:01
Which, as Bay Area folk know, is absolutely essential. So, they’re doing, hm, somebody’s work, maybe not the Lord’s work.

Genevieve 24:09
*laughs*

Genevieve 24:11
They’re just being goats. Conveniently, that does, uh, the rest of us a great service.

Simone 24:17
I mean, I have to imagine that as a goat this is the dream gig to have.

Genevieve 24:22
Getting paid to eat for a living is a pretty good one, you know. I think we all wish for that.

Tabitha 24:27
Yeah. Can I sign up? *laughter*

Simone 24:32
Now, where did the idea for City Grazing come from in the first place?

Genevieve 24:36
Uh, well, you know, that’s a good question. Um, goat grazing has been around for centuries in terms of land management. And most, you know, in, in recent times, there’s actually quite a bit of professional goat grazing that happens in the state of California and nationwide. So city grazing, though, fills a pretty unique niche in San Francisco. A lot of grazing companies don’t want to come in to do smaller properties. So most grazers focus on 10 acres and up, they bring in hundreds of animals. I know grazers who own 4000 sheep and 4000 goats, for instance, they do really, really big parcels of land. So when you’re driving down the freeway, you’re seeing hundreds of goats on the side of the Oakland Zoo, that kind of thing- really, really big pieces of land. And, uh, we came about- the founder saw that happening and he thought, “wouldn’t it be fun to do that on a small scale in the city?” And we got a few goats and kind of started experimenting with it.

Simone 25:37
How many goats do you guys actually have?

Genevieve 25:39
We always have right around 100 animals. Right now, I believe we are at 92.

Simone 25:46
I mean, that’s still a pretty sizable herd but then I’m just, I’m but a city dweller, so, um-

Genevieve 25:51
Exactly. *laughs*

Simone 25:52
Speaking of so, yeah, you mentioned that most of these grazing companies will focus only on the larger areas, but, you know, you are city grazing, you’re working in urban areas. Typically what are the kinds of spaces that you bring your goats to?

Genevieve 26:08
Oh, we do everything from you know, a postage stamp size 25 foot by 25 foot San Francisco backyard with four animals to, um, a couple of acres, uh, in Mount Sutro that’s uh- We’ve got that one coming up again really soon. We’re helping with, uh, some of the forest restoration that’s going on up there. So we tend to do parcels that are two acres and under. Some of those are larger and more publicly accessible, but a lot of what we do is small scale backyard work. There’s a lot of blackberry all over the Bay Area, a lot of English Ivy, a lot of fennel, and all of that stuff can be made is favored by goats, some of their favorite stuff to eat.

Simone 26:55
Well, I have to agree with them there because blackberry is awesome, although I think we’re probably eating different parts of the plant.

Genevieve 27:01
They’ll eat the berries first. They agree with you. If you brought them a pie, they would eat that before they ate the plant, I promise.

Simone 27:08
Now, what’s the, what’s raising goats like? What’s the most difficult part of raising goats? I mean, you know, we hear that they’re, uh, kind of notoriously, mm, independent-minded?

Genevieve 27:20
Yes. Yeah. You know, we, uh- *laughs* have a phrase, ‘escape-proof fencing.’

Simone 27:27
Ahh.

Genevieve 27:27
And that is the quest that we are constantly on, and that is the most difficult part of containing goats and raising them safely. And that’s where they get their reputation from. Absolutely, goats are- I call them opportunistic, the nicest way I can put it. They’re a little bit sociopathic. They’re a lot like people. They have social cohorts. Some of them are smarter than others. Like, an example, we, we adopt goats in, um, we’ve adopted retired dairy goats. We just brought in 16 more goats. One of these 16- just one of them- studied the way that we were closing our fences, closing our gates. She taught herself how to undo a bungee cord within the space of 48 hours, just from watching us-

Tabitha 28:18
*laughs* Dude. That’s amazing!

Genevieve 28:19
And she didn’t do anything about it, just to let you know. She just undid the bungee cord and then stood there, proud of herself, waiting for someone to notice. *laughter* Like, ‘check it out! I can do what you can do.’ *more laughter* So, you know, they’re opportunistic. They’re just interested, and that’s the quality that makes them really good at doing grazing projects. There are very few mammals that you would want to take into a new situation every week. But goats love it, they thrive on it, they’re curious and they get bored. So, they are looking for a challenge. And, again, they’re a lot like people in that regard. So as long as, you know, I think of them as essentially being, like, having, uh, a lot of 14-year-old, drunk, punk rocker employees-

Black Mass Appeal 29:05
*Simone and Tabitha laugh*

Genevieve 29:08
Think of them that way- they’re like underage drinkers who are a little out of control. You just put some fences around them, give ’em something to do, something to eat, they’re gonna chill out, they’re going to do okay, but-

Daniel 29:18
Out of curiosity, when a goat gets out, and becomes, if you will, an escape goat-

Tabitha 29:26
Daniel-

Simone 29:27
Wa-wa.

Daniel 29:27
-what does it usually, what does it usually get up to you? When, when you go to recover them, where have they gone and why?

Genevieve 29:34
To be totally honest, the majority of them will simply stand right on the other side of the fence. *laughter* Really, the majority of them. Now, if they escaped because say, like, a dog gets into their pen, that’s a different story and they will just go on a mad, crazy run until they feel safe again, but if they are not being chased, and they simply find a way to go under a fence, they will just go looking for the next patch of ivy. And they’ll just stop. They’ll stop, you know, three feet away from where they were because now they’re eating something else. *laughter* They’ll go, you know, three doors down and be eating somebody’s delicious rose bushes, because, well, there they are. They’re really just constantly looking for their next meal.

Daniel 30:22
So they, they sound kind of like savants in that they’re very smart, but not in a very executable way necessarily? *laughter*

Genevieve 30:28
Yeah, yeah. That’s a very complementary way to describe it, yes.

Black Mass Appeal 30:32
*Daniel, Simone, and Tabitha laugh*

Simone 30:35
Now, uh, we’ll get into this a little bit more, uh, as we go further into the show, but the personality of goats, like I said, you know, they are, are thought to be quite independent. The comparison to 14-year-old drunk punk rockers, well, I think our listeners are gonna be able to relate to that. Could you maybe describe how, uh, goats compare, perhaps, to other farm animals, like for sheep, for example?

Genevieve 31:03
Sure. Yeah, uh, I grew up on a ranch and that’s kind of how I got into doing this. Um, and we had pretty much every other animal. We had goats for just a very short period of time and I think this is a pretty good example of, you know, it gives you what you’re looking for. The goats that we had would break out of their pen and eat my mother’s landscaping. She had this one little area in front of the ranch house that she would keep beautifully manicured, and every time she got those roses replanted the goats would breakout, eat all the new plants, and then just stand there. And the sheep don’t do that. Cows don’t do that. Horses don’t do that. Pigs don’t do that. Goats though, they have a knack for just waiting until the thing they want most shows up and then zeroing in on it. I, I tell my employees to think of our fences as, it’s a negotiation between us and the goats. There’s no real way to absolutely contain a goat unless you are putting up 10-foot cyclone fencing with razor wire on top of it. They actually can’t jump over that, but I have watched a Pygmy goat clear an eight foot fence from a standing position. Not even running or jumping.

Simone 32:24
Jeez!

Genevieve 32:25
Just standing there and deciding she wanted to jump over it and doing it. It, it’s, um, they have this power *laughs* to clear any obstacle, if they wish. And I kind of think that that’s part of where their diabolical reputation comes from because it is surreal, like you watch that happen and you question your own vision, you question- that you just hallucinated. Because, I mean, it looks like, a Pygmy goat is shaped like a pony-pig, right? They’re these tiny, little, round, fat creatures with short little legs. They don’t look like they should be able to do that. But, it’s kind of like deer if they want to they’ll go right over a fence, and you just don’t see any other animal who has that capacity, uh- in domesticated farm animals.

Simone 33:13
Now I’m just sort of picturing, you know, I’m, I’m just thankful that the goats want to go for the ivy and the blackberries, not people. Otherwise, you’d have, like, uh, real life raptor situation, like Jurassic Park on our hands. *laughter*

Genevieve 33:27
Absolutely, um, one of my former coworkers, uh, Trevor, used to say if goats had top teeth, the entire world would be a desert. *laughter* Interesting little tidbit about goats: they do not have their upper front teeth. They have molars on the top jaw but they don’t have incisors.

Simone 33:48
Hmm.

Genevieve 33:49
Which makes it even more interesting that they can eat all of the crazy plants that they can eat.

Simone 33:54
Yeah, I, I guess they’re just sort of pulling it up. How do they, how- what’s the mechanic of how they eat then?

Genevieve 34:01
They have very, very very dexterous lips and tongues, and if you watch them eat they will do all these amazing gymnastics with their lips to pull the parts of the plant in that they want. And then they’ll bite it off with their molars [unintelligible]

Simone 34:17
Huh. Already learning something today. *laughs*

Daniel 34:21
Ok, I’m, I’m going to ask the million dollar question, why do they always want to climb on you?

Genevieve 34:28
To see whether there’s blackberry sprouting from the top of your head perhaps? I honestly-

Black Mass Appeal 34:32
*Daniel laughs*

Genevieve 34:32
I, I can’t tell you that it I- you know, sorry, I wish I could. But they, they also always, like goats, always always always orient to the highest space, and it has to do with those really unique pupils that they have, you know they have the rectangular pupils, and it is theorized, at this point, that those evolved to give them the best distance predator vision, both to let them spot predators coming from far away, so they have an incredible peripheral vision, goats can almost see behind themselves from a standstill. But they also can then see all the plants that are growing in that range as well, so they’ve got this very unique vision and being up high just maximizes that ability to track predators, to track the best vegetation, and I think that’s why they’re just always trying to get on top- of you, on top of each other, on top of the barn, on top of the truck, you know, it’s just always on top.

Tabitha 35:35
I feel like the answer to that question is just cause they want to. *laughs*

Genevieve 35:39
Yes. In the end- you know, see, see that first word I used: opportunistic, and yeah, yeah-

Simone 35:44
It makes me think of SNL had this Tracy Morgan bit where I think that he was some sort of zookeeper and, uh, Matt Damon. Matt Damon was also in the segment with him and they were, uh, talking about goats and Tracy Morgan was just, like, ‘that goat’s got devil eyes,’ *laughter* and it just stuck in my head. It was the funniest thing. But, you’re right, the, the goats have very unique eyes and I didn’t realize that their vision was so good because of it.

Genevieve 35:45
Yeah, it’s a very interesting thing. Um, thank you for that reminder. I was a huge Brian Fellows fan and I-

Simone 36:21
Yes, Brian Fellows!

Genevieve 36:22
I, I do not remember that specific segment, so I’ll have to go back and look that up. But yeah, they have these amazing rectangular pupils and a couple of years ago, there was a little bit more scientific research done on, like, just what the heck is up with the rectangular pupil, but it gives them amazing, amazing peripheral vision.

Simone 36:42
Do any other animals, uh, also have that?

Genevieve 36:45
Frogs, but it works in a different way.

Simone 36:48
Hmm. I’ve never heard that frogs, uh, have been associated with the devil, but maybe we could start a new trend. We could swap them. They can take their turn.

Genevieve 36:56
Ah-don’t witches have toads?

Simone 36:58
*gasps* That’s an excellent point.

Tabitha 37:02
Getting schooled by the goat people. *laughter*

Genevieve 37:07
We have a lot to-

Daniel 37:08
I could be wrong but I think horses have eyes that are, are, I don’t know if they’re the same but they have weird, long pupils, so-

Genevieve 37:14
Yeah, they have weird pupils, but they’re different, but yes, you’re correct.

Daniel 37:18
Ah!

Genevieve 37:18
Horses do um, and I think, and again, this is not my area of expertise, so I don’t know but I’m pretty sure that some, um, varieties of deer and antelope also have a differently shaped pupil. It’s not the same as a goat’s, but, and, and again, the evolutionary theory is it’s just about having great peripheral vision so you can see that mountain lion or that cheetah coming along.

Simone 37:45
Now, aside from their current job, uh, as, as, as city grazers, as landscape management, when we talk about the domestication of goats, definitely, you know, seen them used for, for milk, for, uh, you know, for butchering, but also we’ve seen them depicted as you know, pulling carts. Uh, how, how workable are they in terms of being a domesticated animal?

Genevieve 38:10
Well, that’s a really good question and it’s a little bit breed specific. And, uh, some, some types of goats have been bred specifically for characteristics like workability, distillity[?], and of course, milk production or meat production. So, meat goats tend to be a little more difficult to work with. They’re hardy, they’re strong, and they can be kind of fierce because of course, the goal here is just to raise a really thickly muscled animal that when it’s slaughtered, will have a lot of meat on it. [unintellible] And dairy goats are bred for their personalities because you want a goat that’s going to be cooperative, easy to walk into the barn for milking every day, willing to put up with being milked and not kicking you, *laughter* you know, things like that. And we’ve actually come around, at City Grazing, to working with dairy goats for a couple of reasons. One, a milk goat only has about a five to six year, uh, working lifespan as a dairy animal, but they’ve got another four to six years of life that they could theoretically be allowed to live if they just had something to do. So we transition them into being grazing goats, and then we can work with that natural, inbred characteristic of being agreeable. It just makes them much easier to load in and out of the truck, easier to work with, easier, you know- less likely to run away if they should escape, and actually less likely to try to escape.

Simone 39:45
How many different breeds of goat are there?

Genevieve 39:48
Oh, I have no idea. Many. Many. *laughter* I would have to Google that but-

Simone 39:55
Well, I mean, uh, certainly seems like just about every continent has its own form of goat, so-

Genevieve 40:04
Right, right, that’s-

Simone 40:05
Worldwide, I mean, everyone’s familiar with them as an animal, which I think does help make them, you know, become more easily understood as a symbol. So, the reason that we’re talking today is because, as we mentioned, in the, in the introduction, the goat is one of those animals that constantly gets associated with Satan, the devil, evil, other entities like that. We’ve talked before about snakes. You know, we’ve made passing mentions to cats and bats and other creatures on this show, but I mean, the goat is the one that keeps coming up, especially because of the big one which is the representation of Baphomet, which is a goat-headed figure, so why don’t we, kind of, go into some of this lore that we are going to use to analyze the association here.

Daniel 40:57
So, quick disclaimer for people who may be listening to this episode before some of the other ones, we already talked about Baphomet way back in Episode Four. Also, by complete coincidence, we’re recording this episode on a baling day[?], so, hey. We also talked a little bit about the sigil of Baphomet in episodes 30 and 72. And in Episode Four, we also mentioned the parable of the goats and the sheep in Matthew 25, quote, “And before Him shall be gathered, all nations they shall separate one from the other, as a shepherd dividith his sheep from his goats, and he’ll shed a sheep in his right hand, but the goats on the left.” We already went over that one. Maybe we should revisit some of those topics in the future, I don’t know. That was one of our very early shows. Perhaps it’s, it’s just possible we didn’t know we were doing yet quite at that point, *laughter* but unfaithful listeners can let us know if they think we should go back to Baphomet- have a return to Baphomet, as it were. But again, if you’re wondering why we haven’t- we’re not going to talk much about those things, it’s because they’re called [?] already.

Simone 41:55
And, so, we have some little facts here that we want to integrate into this conversation. Tabitha, why don’t you take on this first one here?

Tabitha 42:05
All right, from ‘Goat domestication and breeding: a jigsaw of data and animal genetics’ from 2017, “domestic goats are spread across the five continents with a census of 1 billion individuals. The worldwide population of goats descends from a limited number of bezoars-” Bezoars?

Simone 42:28
You got me on that one?

Tabitha 42:29
I’m gonna go with bezoars- “domesticated 10,000 years before the present.” Ooh, that’s- *laughs* okay.

Simone 42:38
YBP, you know me.

Tabitha 42:39
YBP. I’m, I’m into that actually. Anyhow, sorry. “Domesticated 10,000 years before the present in the Fertile Crescent. The Extraordinary adaptability and hardiness of goats favored their rapid spread over the old world reaching the Iberian Peninsula and Southern Africa, 7000 YVP and 2000 YVP, respectively.”

Simone 43:02
A billion goats.

Tabitha 43:06
One-

Simone 43:06
That’s a lot of goats.

Tabitha 43:07
One billion goats. *laughter*

Daniel 43:12
I don’t know about anybody else, but it gives me a very happy, fuzzy feeling thinking about there being a billion goats in the world.

Tabitha 43:17
Yeah, me too. *laughter*

Genevieve 43:20
It definitely makes my job a lot easier.

Tabitha 43:23
*laughs* You’ll- your cup overflow if

Genevieve 43:27
Someone is always looking to give us more goats, let’s put it that way.

Tabitha 43:31
I wish I could have a goat. *laughs*

Simone 43:34
Don’t know we all?

Tabitha 43:35
*laughs* Shall I continue? “In general, domestication should be viewed as a cumulative and gradual evolutionary process that only in the long term leads to the establishment of a new phenotype adapted to cap- captivity and human needs. In this sense, goat domestication likely followed a prey pathway, i.e., goats were initially hunted, but at a later stage, but at later stages, they were directly managed by humans to ensure prey availability. The post domestication dispersal of goats was followed by a population expansion and- most notably in Asia and Africa. These continents nowadays contain 58.2 and 36.2%, respectively, of the 1 billion goats worldwide.

Simone 44:28
So when we’re talking domestication, people are like, ‘hey, goats are delicious. Let’s keep them around,’ and then they realized, goats are awesome for other reasons, so we definitely want to keep them around.

Tabitha 44:39
This goat’s really good at getting out of its pen. How can we use this to our advantage? *laughter*

Simone 44:45
Did Harry Houdini have any goats that were aware of? *Tabitha laughs* I wonder how many goats are just named Houdini, basically?

Genevieve 44:54
Oh, so many. *laughter*

Tabitha 44:58
Do all of yours have names? Like, are they all individuals?

Genevieve 45:01
Yes.

Tabitha 45:01
Oh my gosh, I love it.

Genevieve 45:03
Um, and, you know, their names can sometimes come out of their personalities. One of the new ones we’ve just named her Ponch, and it’s kind of a circuitous route to how that got there, but she was dancing on a little, tiny table like one of the hippos from Fantasia.

Black Mass Appeal 45:21
*collective aww’ing*

Genevieve 45:21
And we’re watch- and she’s this great big, giant animal, you know, she must weigh close to 200 pounds-

Tabitha 45:27
Wow. *laughs*

Genevieve 45:27
-she really needs to lose weight. And she’s twirling around, you know, and just like, very proud of herself that she can balance on her little tippy toes. And I said, “She looks like one of the hippos from Fantasia, doesn’t she?” And, and, my, my number one goater Dawn was like, “I’m on it!” She just looks it up on her phone, she’s like, “You know, the composer was [Ponchielli], let’s name her Ponch, “so we did.

Simone 45:52
Oh-

Tabitha 45:52
Aw, I love it!

Genevieve 45:54
Sometimes they get a name out of their hobbies or they’re- the one who immediately learned how to undo bungee cords? Her name is Trouble, for obvious reasons.

Black Mass Appeal 46:04
*laughter*

Simone 46:04
A goat named Trouble!

Tabitha 46:04
That was my nickname in high school.

Genevieve 46:06
Yes, exactly.

Simone 46:07
So cute!

Genevieve 46:08
So yeah, they all, they all end up with names. Sometimes we just name them all after a boy band, you know. It’s just, it’s how it works out.

Simone 46:16
You know, since you’ve got the, the individuals with their personalities, is there a way that you kind of rotate them in and out of jobs? Is there some goats that are better at certain, certain jobs than others? Or-

Genevieve 46:26
Yes.

Simone 46:27
-is it just kind of whoever’s on duty that day?

Genevieve 46:29
It’s a little bit of both, but definitely, you want to have, you know, let’s say we’re splitting off five goats or 15 goats to go to a backyard. You want to pick at least one good alpha goat, who’s gonna kind of show the other ones what to do and, and stick up for them if, you know, let’s say a dog or coyote comes into the property. And you don’t want too many of those. You wouldn’t want to grab a group of like three goats who all have alpha tendencies because they’re just gonna spend the whole time fighting. But you also don’t want to pick one goat who’s going to get bowled by two others. So we look for the social cohorts that they form on their own. And we have certain groups that, that tend to be together, like we’ve got one herd that’s- we refer to our main herd as the OG’s, the original goats-

Black Mass Appeal 47:20
*laughter*

Daniel 47:20
-and, you know, adding goats into that, that’s just a large group of goats that all get along pretty well together. They’re all adults. They’re all in good health. None of them have any real issues. And we, we wouldn’t want to put in anyone, any of the goats that are too young or too new, or have health challenges in with that larger cohort.

Simone 47:40
So, what is goat society? Like, is there kind of a pecking order structure? Or, you know, I guess it depends on the individual personalities?

Genevieve 47:51
Yeah, let’s return back to that example of drunk 14-year-old punks.

Black Mass Appeal 47:57
*laughter*

Genevieve 47:57
So you can imagine, let’s say- we’ve all been to Gilman Street, you go to Gilman Street, there are 100 kids in there. There’s going to be a pecking order, right?

Tabitha 48:07
Sure.

Genevieve 48:07
Like, you’re going to have, you’re going to have little fights, you’re going to have little mock battles going on. There’s going to be a lot of one-upmanship. That’s what goats are doing constantly. Or at least that’s how Gilman was way back when in the 80’s when I used to go. *laughs* So, that’s- I, I, I constantly return back to that when I’m watching the goats. It’s really fun if you, like, if we’ve split them up. Let’s say we’ve taken 40 goats to one place, 40 goats to another, and they return, everybody comes back together at a different, larger location. They will go through, they will have, like, it’s basically, like, a fist bump, they’ll just touch heads. Like, “oh, I haven’t seen you in a while.”

Black Mass Appeal 48:47
*collective aww’ing*

Genevieve 48:48
And they’ll give each other a little bump. But sometimes that bonk turns into, like, they’ve got their hackles raised, and they’re going to have an actual little, like, ‘I didn’t like you then and I don’t like you now,” kind of a thing and just start going at each other. And it’s all in good fun. It’s very rare that those mock battles end up with any actual physical injury. Part of that is because we don’t actually keep any intact billy goats in our herd. All of our males are fixed. And that’s partially population control, but it’s also about herd management.

Simone 49:21
Right? You know, I’ve definitely seen the, the pictures of the goats who have pool noodles placed over their horns because they’ve gotten into a bad habit of, of head-butting people. What’s, what’s, what’s that behavior about? You know, I don’t know that many animals outside of goats, maybe bighorn sheep, that, that use head-butting as the main, kind of, battle mode.

Genevieve 49:44
Yeah, yeah, I will say that, you know, in all of my years of working with animals, I have been injured by a sheep quite intensely with a head-butting. I’ve never had any of my goats hit me in a way that was that forceful. And the only time that I’ve had my goats hit me hard enough to really make me, you know, step back, they thought it was another goat. And it’s funny because if they hit you and they think you’re another goat, they will suddenly pull back and look at you with this very apologetic like, “Oh, I’m sorry, did I do that?” *laughter* Because they, they definitely know the difference between us and each other and they hit each other, much more forcefully. They know that we will bring them food, they know that we’re going to take them to the next good meal. So they’re relatively cooperative with us. I won’t say they’re always cooperative. You know, they will fight back if they decide it’s not the day they want to get in the truck, but it’s still on a much lower level than the way that they battle with each other.

Tabitha 50:48
They know that we’re squishy?

Genevieve 50:50
They know that we’re squishy! Yeah, they do seem to- they also know that, you know, I think, even more, they know that we know where the good food is. They don’t know know how to drive, but I do. *laughter* And they know that, you know, we will get in the truck and we will take them to the next good meal or we will bring a good meal to them with it. And they’re very, very aware of what that connection is. And, I know, I like to train them with a bell so that if they do get out, again, let’s say they do get out, they are getting chased by a dog or they just take off down the street because they’re freaked out. If they hear our bell, they will come to it because they know like, “Oh, there’s the lady with the food.”

Simone 51:31
It’s the dinner bell.

Genevieve 51:31
So, it’s- yep, that’s- it’s always the dinner bell. And, so but to get back to the head-butting issues, I really, really do think that it’s a method of communication. They do have a very intense social hierarchy. There is always a goat that’s at the top. And it’s really interesting when our, when our alpha goat passes away. It’s really interesting to watch the jockeying that occurs and we’ll have a few months where there are three or four goats that are trying to re-establish the pecking order. And they’ll actually rule together pretty comfortably until one emerges as the actual alpha. And that alpha is always being challenged just a little bit. And that goat has kind of like a, a lower level cohort of those other, like, three or four that were originally jockeying, they work it out. And so then they get a kind of, like, a court system going on, basically. So you’ve got your ruler, and he’s got his three, or she, underlings, and they tend to take the fights from the younger goats that are trying to come up.

Simone 52:16
Huh. Now, how do they get along with other animals? You know, we have here a quote from the story of goats from PBS. And it says that “in the earliest days of livestock farming, flocks of goats have been partnered with flocks of sheep since the grazing habits and byproducts of both animals complement one another, where sheep are placid grazers, legendary for following a leader. Goats are more fastidious and inquisitive browsers infamous for wandering off on their own accord.” Now, do you see pairs of goats with, with sheep? Do they get along with other farm animals? Or do you have to kind of keep them separate?

Genevieve 53:19
I’ll be honest, when I looked at that, it’s, it’s a very idealistic description of what’s going on there. Sheep and goats are good in terms of, like, you have goats go through and graze a pasture first, because they’re going to eat things that will one, kill a sheep, and two, that sheep just don’t like. So they’re going to eat all the top, they’ll eat all the brush, they’ll things like blackberry and scotch broom, which sheep simply can’t eat. It basically comes down to their need for minerals, so she- goats have a need for copper and selenium. That in a week, a goat, what a goat needs will kill a sheep, so it’s a very different set of needs. And sheep love grass, they- goats will eat grass but they don’t love it- we really have to bribe them into it and convince them to do it. Sheep love it, so that’s why they would follow each other in rotational grazing like traditional on a, on a ranch. Sheep will follow goats quite well but not in a shared herd situation. So, you don’t keep your goats and your sheep living in the same area because goats will kill a sheep just for fun.

Simone 54:35
Oh wow.

Genevieve 54:36
Yeah, they, they do get their demonic reputation *laughter* a little bit because they will do things like, like- large- one of the reasons we don’t put baby goats in with our OG’s is because the OG’s will kill a baby goat just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They’re very aggressive with each other and with other animals. If they feel like it; not always. It’s not consistent behavior. But it’s consistent enough that they are deserving of their reputation.

Daniel 55:09
Well, on the subject of sheep and goats, can we get to a point that I’m really excited about?

Genevieve 55:14
Yes.

Simone 55:15
Go for it.

Daniel 55:16
So over the years, we have sometimes run into this question of why the goat thing with the devil? Why that animal and that imagery specifically? And of course, that’s not the only animal that gets tied into Satan and Satanism, but obviously, it’s the most common. And in the past, I feel like we have struggled to answer that question because it seems like a very obscure, esoteric point, and I was never 100% happy with the explanation that people gave to me. Finally, I think I’m going to give away the game up front because even though we have a million things to talk about, this one I feel like is kind of the big answer, at least I’ve convinced of that. Here, I’m going to read from an Encyclopedia. com article here about sheep and goats in the history of world religions: “Sheep and goats appear frequently in the history of religions from prehistoric times down to the present and across a wide geographic area. In religious practice and mythology, goats have been important as symbols of extraordinary virility and fecundity and as animals associated with the profane, and so we’re often associated with fertility cults.” I’d just like to point that out: Why do, why do livestock, for example, show up in people’s religious beliefs and practices? Because that’s what they’ve got around. Goats are an extremely common herd animal to raise and, as we learned prior to that, to hunt, so of course, they’re going to show up in people’s spiritual beliefs. ‘Cuz they’re everywhere, right? You know, this is, this is what you fold into your practices is these things that are in your lives. Continuing, “A Babylonian hymn compares Ishtar to a goat and Tammuz to a kid. Also in Babylonia, a goat was sacrificed in order to rid a person of disease. In a Sumerian tradition, the goat was linked to the god Enki, who had the form of a goat in the front and a fish’s tail in the back that was crowned with the head of a ram.” You will, you will see that I noticed a lot of conflating or mixing up of goats and rams in art and in various other practices. Continuing, “This bizarre combination reflects Enki’s nature as ruler of both water and plants. In the Israelite religion, the goat was the preferred sacrifice to Yahweh. Ancient beliefs about goats have survived in folklore of various modern peoples. Modern day Mummers continue to link the goat with the ancient cult of fertility when they sing, ‘where the goat goes, there the wheat grows.'” I don’t think I know that one, but apparently it’s a banger from way back. “And when they portray the mock death of a goat and its subsequent resurrection-” Okay, that’s intriguing. “As in ancient times, the goat continues to be associated [with] various traditions with the nether world with ketonic power-” Ketonic means underground. “In this respect, the goat is opposed to the pure lamb. And that last sentence is where I said, “Aha! Now I think I get it,” because we know that in Christian, in Christian theology, Jesus is frequently likened to the lamb, to the sacrificial lamb specifically, and in the Book of Revelation, he even appears as the slaughtered lamb in some of John’s, let’s call them interesting, visions. Go back to Episode 53 for more on that. And so, it makes sense that if you are looking for animal imagery that is complimentary, but inverse to a goat, what is it going to be a sheep or a lamb? What’s it going to be except a goat, they’re frequently raised together. But as Genevieve points out, they have kind of cross purposes, they have sort of inverse personalities. You could also compare Satan to a predatory animal like a lion or a wolf, and sometimes they do that, but the goat just kind of makes sense. It’s right there. It’s the obvious alternative. And so I don’t think it’s surprising that we get things like the parable of the goats and the sheep that we talked about earlier. and I also don’t think it’s surprising that, again, if you were looking for a counterpoint to this one specific image of the pure, innocent, beautiful lamb, it’s probably gonna be the goat. It’s probably gonna be the drunken, 14-year-old, frat boy of your herd. So more than anything else-

Tabitha 59:00
They’re not frat boys, they’re punkers, man.

Daniel 59:01
Oh, yes. Excuse me. Thank you. *laughter*

Genevieve 59:04
They’re more fun than frat boys, you know what I mean?

Daniel 59:07
*laughs* Fair enough. But you see what I’m getting at here. It’s all of the, all of the tumblers click into place on that, at least in my opinion, so-

Genevieve 59:15
Yup.

Daniel 59:15
-if there’s one big answer, I think this is it, so I was very excited about that.

Genevieve 59:19
Yeah, if I can comment to that just to back you up, I would say from personal experience with sheep and goats, If you want a group of sheep, like, let’s say you were, you are herding sheep. You want them to go in a direction, you can get one of them moving in one direction and the rest of them will simply go along with it. They will stick together. We’ve all seen these videos, and it’s very easy to keep goats all- or sheep all going in the same direction. Goats, on the other hand, if they decide that there is something on the other side of you, that is more delicious than where you want them to go, they don’t care. They- you can, you can grab their herd leader and try to make it go in the direction you wish for it to go, the rest of the goats will not follow you, they will go eat all of the roses or all of the wheat or all of whatever it is that they wish to get to, then they’ll follow you afterwards. And that streak of independence, would, I would think, for, you know, a group of people that are, are nomads, that are leading these types of animals around, you could absolutely associate that lamb, which is also again, a more fragile creature that is more likely to die if he eats the wrong thing or doesn’t get enough water. Sheep are also are much more- they’re less drought tolerant and are more heat-sensitive than goats. Goats can go for days without drinking, and really not have any problems at all. And, so they’re, they’re just these incredibly hardy animals that have the ability to survive on their own and can do whatever they wish. Sheep don’t really have that. They are much more the domesticated animal that is dependent on the shepherd. So, the, the analogy in the Bible is, is really clear if you’ve worked with both animals. It just seemed super obvious to me even as a bored child listening to *laughter* Bible readings, I was always, like, “Oh, yep, pretty obvious there, isn’t it?” So-

Daniel 1:01:24
And, um, I, I would say, by, by that same token, that means that goats actually make a handy analogy for Satanism, also, because- We’ve talked a little bit on the show before about how being a Satanist has some built-in internal contradictions. Yes, sometimes, we have leaders, or we have formal groups, or we have rules and tenants and structures, but we also stress this idea about individualism as the primary motivating factor. And, sometimes those ideas get in the way of each other. But, you know, you look at the goat. It’s like, well, goats are social animals. Goats have structure. Goats have leaders, but they also sometimes don’t care. And so, *laughter* I feel like we can all identify with that pretty closely. Also, I should have brought this up earlier, but I wanted to tell the story, sorry to keep talking, but Genevieve, when we emailed you to appear on this show- you know, sometimes we email people out of the blue to ask if they want to come on the show. Often we do not hear back from them, which could be for any number of reasons. But in Genevieve’s case, I got the email back a day later saying, not only, “Yes, I’d be happy to come talk on your show,” but also saying, like, “I feel like on some level, I’ve been waiting for an invitation like this ever since we started doing City Grazing.” And I love this vision of somebody, like, coming home one day saying, “I got this great idea for sustainable local business. I’ve got some money lined up. I’ve got some idea- I’ve got, I’ve got some angles on some loans, and I guess all we need to do now is sit back and wait for Satan to call.”

Genevieve 1:02:47
*Genevieve laughs*

Daniel 1:02:48
I’m assuming that’s exactly how the conversation happened.

Genevieve 1:02:50
Totally. That’s exactly how it went. *laughs* I wish I could say that I had started City Grazing so that yes, I could I get absolutely confirm that, that nice little fantasy. *laughs* Unfortunately, it did not. But, it’s, it’s kind of that way. You know, one of the more appealing things about working with goats is that you’re not- never going to get bored. They will give you something you did not expect all the time. And they’re, they’re very interactive. And I don’t like for things to be predictable, and so I can see why they have their kind of demonic aspect. If you just want the farm to be as simple and easy and flowing as smoothly as possible, you don’t get goats. My mother was convinced that the goats were of the devil *laughter* because they would do these things. They would just wait until she had something beautiful, and then they’d just break out again and eat it again. And she made my dad get rid of them. She made him sell them. It was just like, “No, these animals are a problem. They can’t be around.” And, as a bored kid, I was like, “Yeah, but those are the ones that are fun.” *laughter* You know, it’s fun to watch them eat the landscaping. It’s hilarious to watch them stand on the cars. And so working with them now, you know, they, they do for all of us. They satisfy that urge to be entertained. Like, you know, sheep are really boring. They just all move together as one, they do what they’re supposed to do. Goats, it’s something new every time, and they’re always playing with each other or dancing or, you know, sliding down hills. One thing about the goats, they play. They actively, physically play, and if we put them in a location that’s got a grassy slope, they will slide down at like kids in a playground.

Simone 1:04:44
Aww.

Tabitha 1:04:44
Oh, that’s so cute, ugh.

Genevieve 1:04:46
Like, on their sides, on their backs, and if they catch people watching, they will stop. *laughter* They like to do it just for the goats.

Simone 1:04:54
I, I wasn’t doing anything.

Genevieve 1:04:54
Yeah, yeah, they, they just want the goats to see them playing. I’ve also- when we were using electrical- electrified fences, which we don’t very much anymore, they’re just not that predictable, again, goats, once they learned like, “Oh, it hurts, but it doesn’t really hurt.?” Like, they’ll just go underneath it if they want to. But when you were using them more regularly, we had a, one particular goat who would shove the other goats into the electrified fence when they weren’t looking.

Simone 1:05:00
*laughing* Oh, no!

Genevieve 1:05:23
And she would- they do this thing, when they think something’s funny where they wag their tails very rapidly. They don’t laugh out loud, but they do this, this little tail wag that’s very distinctive when they’re amused. And she would just stand at the top of the hill, shove goats into the fence when they lost their balance, and then she would just wag her tail. *laughter* She was highly entertained. Like, tell me that’s not just a little bit devilish, you know?

Simone 1:05:47
That’s so funny.

Tabitha 1:05:48
*laughing* I love it.

Simone 1:05:50
I actually wanted to kind of circle back to something real quick because in the quote from Encyclopedia.com that Daniel read is, they made mention of associations with fertility cults. Now, you know, we think of fertility, we think of, you know, rabbits, but what is the fertility of a goat? Are they particularly, um, productive?

Genevieve 1:06:14
Oh, yes, exceedingly so, and, and again, that is part of why we don’t keep any intact males around. Goats will actually if, if allowed to, they will bear their first set of offspring before they’re even fully grown. So males become viable somewhere between six and eight months.

Tabitha 1:06:37
Wow.

Genevieve 1:06:37
They’re not fully grown and- goats aren’t fully grown until they’re three years old. So they can actually kid long before it’s really healthy for them to do so. And they also have a lot of really gross behavior that starts out if you have an intact billy goat around. All of the male goats will begin peeing on their own faces. I have no explanation for this again. *laughter* Veterinary medicine cannot explain to me why male goats urinate all over their little goat beard. They just get themselves really, really stinky, and apparently, this is highly attractive to the female goats.

Tabitha 1:07:17
Ugh.

Genevieve 1:07:18
And the female goats will also then have their hormone production activated, and they will begin to fight with each other- not in that playful way that I was talking about before that they use to establish hierarchy within the herd. They begin to battle for that intact male’s attention, and they will just, like, cut each other open. They’re like, it’s, it’s like a cage fight gone bad. And so you kinda don’t want to have- it’s another reason why you don’t see billy goats kept in close proximity with the rest of a herd. It just generates really bad behavior. So their virility-

Tabitha 1:07:57
Pissing and fighting does sound like teenage punkers.

Genevieve 1:08:01
Pissing and fighting, yeah. And it’s, uh, their virility is definitely unquestioned, like, among other animals. With sheep, with cows, you don’t have that kind of behavior going on.

Simone 1:08:15
Okay, well let’s move along. And let’s talk about some more distinct associations with witchcraft and Satanism. So, you want to take this next one, why are goats associated with the devil?

Tabitha 1:08:29
‘Why are goats associated with the Devil?,’ from Slate in 2016: “‘There is nothing about goats in the Salem records or, that I can tell, in any American records of other witchcraft prosecutions,’ the famous Cornell scholar Marybeth Morton wrote. Emerson Baker, a history professor at Salem State University, co-hosted a packed screening of The Witch in Salem and considers himself among the film’s biggest fans. ‘It’s just about the best depiction of early New England that I’ve seen in a movie,’ he told me, but he too said he didn’t recall goats in North American lore or historical records. Eggers, the movie’s writer and director, conceded that Black Philip is in some ways his own special creation. ‘It’s not that I’ve not found any evidence in English witchcraft of goats playing some kind of function similar to this, but it’s just not as common,’ he said. ‘Most of the goat mythology tends to be from continental witchcraft. In England, if you were a goat farmer, you were thought of as very backwards.’ Malcolm Gaskill, a professor of early modern history, confirmed that goats play a more prominent role in European witch imagery. ‘In European engravings and paintings that depict the witches Sabbath, the devil is often depicted as a goat or goat-like man,’ he wrote.”

Simone 1:09:55
I think that’s kind of interesting is, you know, when we, the witch, is one of our favorite movies on this show for Satanic Bay Area and I think collectively amongst Satanists, but I was really surprised to learn that the association with goats and witchcraft was not as strong in North America.

Tabitha 1:10:14
Yeah, I didn’t realize that at all.

Simone 1:10:16
Yeah.

Tabitha 1:10:18
So continuing, “when did goats first become a tool of the occult? Everyone I asked pointed in different directions, including Greek mythology, biblical references, Baphomet, and rich artistic records stretching back to the Middle Ages. There is no single point of reference. But ghosts pervade many stance- strands of mythology connected to malevolent spirits. The origins may be elusive, but Gaskill offered a convincing explanation for why the link exists. ‘I guess the goat devil features so prominently in European iconography because of the horns and weird eyes.'” *laughter* Thanks, dude. *more laughter* He wrote, ‘”But also because of the association with predatory sexual potency and energy.'”

Simone 1:11:07
Well, we’ve certainly confirmed that.

Tabitha 1:11:09
Yeah.

Genevieve 1:11:11
it does smell incredibly bad. *laughter* And so if you, if you’re gonna read into like, ‘Oh my god, this is, like, hell must smell like this, like a horny goat.’ It’s kinda possible, like, it does. It’s a truly awful, awful smell.

Simone 1:11:30
I mean, I just, I find it amusing how, you know, over time, so much importance and meaning has been ascribed to these representations. But really, it just boils down to, they look weird and they smell bad.

Tabitha 1:11:45
They do what they want. They look weird. They smell bad. *laughs* They’re definitely evil. *laughs again*

Genevieve 1:11:53
And Baphomet is a really cool image. You know, it just sticks with us. It’s a great meme. It just keeps coming back.

Tabitha 1:11:59
Yeah, it’s true.

Daniel 1:12:00
Now there’s one really important contextual point that we haven’t gotten to yet, which is, here’s from a paper titled ‘The scapegoat ritual and its Ancient Near East parallels.’ I’m not going to try to pronounce the author’s name, it’s in the show notes sorry. “The ritual of cleansing the Tabernacle in Leviticus 16, which always takes place every Yom Kippur, features the ‘sent-away goat’ ritual. Aaron is to take two billy goats from the Israelites and stand them at the entrance before the tent of meeting. He places [lots] on the two goats, one for Yahweh on the other for Azazel. He brings forward the goat identified for Yahweh, which will be a sin or purification offering. The second billy goat is treated differently. Aaron shall lay hands upon the head of the live goat and confess over all of the iniquities and transgressions of the Israelites, and it will be sent off to the wilderness, thus the billy goat should carry on it all of their iniquities to an inaccessible region. He who sent off the billy goat for Azazel shall wash his han- clothes, and bathe his body in water, and after that, he may reenter the camp. Traditional commentaries throughout the ages have struggled to understand this rite-” Yeah, I’m there with ya, man. “-Which is unusual in the biblical corpus. Animal rituals, especially the Priestly texts are always, almost always sacrifices, i.e., offerings to God. The most ancient example of a sending away ritual was uncovered in the Ebla archives in modern Syria from the 24th century BCE. There a tablet describes a ritual in which an animal is sent away in order to purify the space prior to a royal wedding. Here the goat is sent out, dressed up in a decorative silver bracelet and car-” Aww, that’s nice. “-And carries with it impurity allowing the gods, and later the king and queen, to enter the mausoleum as part of the wedding ceremony. A Hurro-Hittite rite found in the archives of modern Turkey states, ‘an exorcist lets lose a number of live animals referred to as nakussis, which carry off abstract evils and by doing so, purifies the royals and the deity alike.'” So of course, this practice is where we get that term ‘scapegoat,’ and here we see that it’s quite literal. You are very literally taking all of your problems and metaphorically transferring them onto this one creature, and then disposing of it as a way of ridding yourself of those as well, but of course, we also see that the right is much more elaborate than that, that there are two goats, and that the contrast between them is apparently very critical. And, by the way, if you’re wondering what the Azazel is, we’re going to get to that in a second, although I’m not necessarily sure there is an answer. For once though, I am actually 100% sure we are pronouncing the name of that demon correctly. So, there’s- a lot of the time when people talk about the association of the Devil and goats, they will bring up this particular passage because it ties the goats directly to this idea of sin in, again, a couple of different ways here, which is intriguing.

Tabitha 1:14:47
You know, the thing that I’ve been thinking about- so I learned today that goats are really good at living on their own and can survive for a long time, so I like the idea that they kept doing this scapegoat thing and then all the, like, loose goats, like, got together and just, like, had a good time out in the wilderness.

Black Mass Appeal 1:15:04
*everyone laughs*

Tabitha 1:15:05
Thanks, Bible. *more laughter*

Simone 1:15:07
Well, do we want to get into- oh shoot. I want to say [Azayzel], but you seem pretty firm on your pronunciation, Daniel?

Daniel 1:15:17
Yes, for once, I am sure that we were pronouncing a name- how to pronounce a name on this show, and I know this because- I think we brought this up back in Episode 48 when we did the names of the devil- you’ll notice that in ‘suffix el,’ which is a word that gets translated sometimes as strength, but also sometimes refers directly to God. In fact, the- sometimes the earliest names for God in Hebrew texts is El or Elohim. Elohim might mean something slightly different its, it’s, it’s weird, but that’s why-

Simone 1:15:44
So what about- what about Kal-El?

Daniel 1:15:45
Uhh-

Simone 1:15:49
Superman.

Daniel 1:15:49
Wow, ok, you just blew my mind. Um-

Simone 1:15:52
Boom!

Daniel 1:15:53
But we- I, we brought this up earlier because you’ll notice the name-

Simone 1:15:56
Or Nick Cage’s son, whatever.

Daniel 1:15:57
Yes, you’ll notice the names of angels, always end in the ‘el’ sound: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, even the scary angels like Azrael and Samael, and so, because that ‘el’ sound always connotes that particular relationship with God, and even my name, Daniel, which an ex-Catholic, Satanist friend of mine told me means ‘judged by God,’ which I didn’t know when I picked the pseudonym but fucking yeah, okay. *Simone laughs* So yes, so you have to, it has to end on that heavy ‘el’ noise. So this- I- for once, I’m pretty sure about this one. Anyway-

Tabitha 1:16:34
We’re gonna get letters, I just want you to know that.

Daniel 1:16:36
We are going to get, we are going to get emails, I know. *laughter*

Simone 1:16:39
That just really makes me want to call you ‘Dan-i-elle.’

Black Mass Appeal 1:16:41
*Tabitha and Daniel laugh*

Daniel 1:16:41
For all I know, that’s how they said it then, I don’t know. So for an explanation of Azazel, we’re going to turn to the Jewish Encyclopedia circa 1906, which is a resource that we’ve used a lot on this show, but I can’t help it, it’s got a lot of stuff in there that’s very- you can’t necessarily find easy references to elsewhere. I do worry that being over 100 years old, this might be a little out of date, so, I don’t know, ‘at’ us if you know, so. Azazel, “the name of the supernatural being mentioned in connection with the ritual of the Day of Atonement. After Satan, for whom he was in some degree of preparation, Azazel enjoys the distinction of being the most mysterious extrahuman character in sacred literature. Unlike other Hebrew proper names, the name itself is obscure. The Rabbi’s interpreting Azazel, as ‘Azaz,’ (rugged) and ‘el’ (strong), refer to the rugged or rough mountainous cliffs of which the goat was cast down.” I’ve also sometimes heard it interpreted as rugged, being reference to the desert or the wilderness or the wasteland. Sometimes I call it- sometimes they translate this word as ‘the God of the rough places,’ or something along those lines, ‘God of the desert, the wasteland.’ “Most modern scholars, after having for some time endorsed the old view, have accepted the opinion mysteriously hinted at that Azazel belongs to the class of ‘se’irim,’ goat-like demons, jinn haunting the desert to which the Israelites were wont to offer sacrifice.” And when I read that I’m like, “the hell do you say? I, what?” Again, my mind was blown. They’re, they’re sac- they were sacrificing the goat demons? What? And then I discovered, actually- we brought this up on the show before too if you go back to the Lilith episode, number 47- and you remember that one passage from Isaiah that might mention Lilith, that also mentions the goat demons out in the desert or sometimes- we saw there were a million translations- sometimes they were goat demons or sometimes they were just goats or sometimes it said satyrs or sometimes it says night monsters or just wild creatures. This apparently is the same thing [as] the se’irim, according to the same encyclopedia- the Jewish Encyclopedia, is a “rendering by English versions of the Hebrew with Satyr, ‘he-goat,’ or ‘wild goat,’ or some of the passages just as Devil. The old versions used for- a word denoting a demon, a false god, or ‘hairy being’. It is certain that a natural animal is not intended in these passages. Thus in Isaiah- okay, here, sorry, I got ahead of myself again- Thus in Isaiah, the se’irim are mentioned together with Lilith and animals of the desert and desolate places, and are described as ‘dancing’ and ‘calling to one another.'” Now I kind of like that idea of what Tabitha just said about all the scapegoats surviving off the land and getting together to party once a year. Maybe that’s what this was, I don’t know. “In other passages they referred to as objects of worship. Possibly the versions reflect the ancient corruption of the se’irim as hairy and perhaps goat shaped beings-” I’m sorry- ancient conception as hairy and goat-shaped beings. The association of monstrous beings with ruins and desert places is still a prevalent element in the folklore of Arabia and Syria, and the Arabian jinn are also represented as having monstrous hairy forms.” So, this is weird and obscure, but it is possible that there was this long-established Jewish lore slash demonology of goats and goat demons that may or may not have been an object of idolatrous worship, which, If true, yeah, I think that might contribute to our image of Satan as goat-like, I just gotta go out on a limb there, so weird, really weird. This one I kind’ve had to, like, when I read this the first time, I just kind of sat and stared at a wall for five minutes trying to make sense out of it all.

Daniel 1:20:12
Genevieve, you said you had a scapegoat story in one of your emails?

Tabitha 1:20:16
Oh!

Genevieve 1:20:17
I do, yeah. So, a few years back, this is actually about, gosh, I think about six or seven years ago now, it’s when I first- I hadn’t been working for City Grazing for too long. And we were approached by a Jewish community group that was doing some singles mixers at the time of year that the scapegoat ritual traditionally happened. And they wanted to know if we would be willing to bring goats to these three different events that they were staging, so that people could assign their sins to living goats, in honor of this ancient tradition and- It sounded like fun. I didn’t think too much of it. I certainly- it never crossed my mind that this would have an impact on these goats’ lives. We joked about the fact that I was not going to take these goats to the desert and let them go. And as long as they were cool with that, that these goats would just be going back to their normal grazing life, sure. We could show up and make this happen. And they were fun! They were great events. And we had these three goats that we rotated through these events. They were all very healthy, young, and, and sociable goats, so that they would be more contented to be at a backyard party in San Francisco and have people coming up and touching them and whispering things in their ears. All three of those goats died within a year of these events.

Simone 1:21:53
Woah!

Genevieve 1:21:54
One-yeah. One of them, there was a, an illness that ran through the herd. It killed almost no other animals. You would expect that, at worst, this, you know, the animals that might have perished from this would have been elder goats or very young goats. Not a ridiculously healthy, two-year-old animal. So one of them died from this. One of them died from a very weird feeding incident, where she began frothing at the mouth violently, and simply died. And it happens on occasion, it’s called frothy bloat, but again, it is very strange that it would just be this one animal that would die that way. And the third, we found dead at a grazing site. Not a mark on her. No explanation. No other goats dead. Just dead.

Simone 1:22:46
Wow.

Genevieve 1:22:47
Yep. And I decided after that, that we weren’t going to do any more rituals! *laughs*

Daniel 1:22:53
Yes, good call.

Tabitha 1:22:54
I’d say.

Genevieve 1:22:56
So, there is a lot of power in ritual, and occasionally you come across it, and this was one of those occurrences. So, it’s a spooky story and it stuck with me because I’ve never really seen ritual create that profound of an impact.

Daniel 1:23:17
Okay, weird. *laughter*

Genevieve 1:23:20
*laughing* I’ll leave it up to you guys, whether you actually want to air that bit or not, like, feel free-

Simone 1:23:24
Oh, no, it’s fascinating.

Daniel 1:23:26
Yeah, no, that’s too good to leave out.

Daniel 1:23:29
One last point on Azazel, then I’ll stop talking, I promise. We have mentioned on the show previously, this time I don’t remember which episode, but of course, that is also the name of one of the prominent fallen angels from the Book of Watchers. The weird, apocryphal, Jewish text that largely- provided a lot of the framework for what would later become the Satan myth, so the fact that that one name is associated first with the scapegoats, and then later with the fallen angels is, again, possibly, part of the root of that devilish goat imagery. I would really like to do a Book of Watchers episode one of these days, but I think it came in like, fifth place on the Patreon poll last time, so probably not soon.

Simone 1:24:10
Now, we’ve mentioned before on the show, the phenomenon of the Christian religion moving into a new geographic location and the people then either trying to incorporate the gods of the native peoples or flipping them on their head and making the gods demons and, you know, encouraging their rejection. And so we kind of touched on that just a bit earlier. Now, we’ve got a little bit more here with the demonization of Pan by Kevin Hearne, in 1998. “To the Greeks, Pan was a shepherd, a thing of nature, certainly not out to corrupt and steal men’s souls. He was lusty; he played pipes and was therefore musical; and he was a god of nature. And though much is made in schools and textbooks of the major Olympian gods of Zeus and the gang, it was clear from the archaeological evidence that Pan was the favorite god of the Greek people. There are more dedications to him than to any other deity. Perhaps this is what led Christian theologians to demonize Pan. They sensed a powerful competitor in the hearts of the people. After the Council of Nicea issued the Nicene Creed and the Roman Catholic Church was established in 325 CE, Christian theologians transformed Pan from a benign nature god into Satan.” Now, okay. Let’s backtrack a little bit here. Pan. You know what Pan looks like. Pan looks like Mr. Tumnus from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Tabitha 1:25:41
Right.

Simone 1:25:43
We got the goat legs, we got some other goat-y features, but definitely a strong goat association, very strong goat look, if you will.

Tabitha 1:25:52
Yes.

Simone 1:25:53
So, continuing. Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell believes that “since Pan was ‘a phallic deity like his father Hermes, he represented sexual desire, which can be both creative and destructive.’ The Church still preaches loudly about the destructive power of sexual immorality. Since pan’s sexual nature was so evident, this might explain the Church’s readiness to hold up Pan as an example of profound moral turpitude. ‘Sexual passion, which suspends reason and easily leads to excess, was alien to the asceticism of the Christians; a god of sexuality could easily be assimilated into the principle of evil.'” And from what we heard about goats, uh, that’s a pretty strong association.

Tabitha 1:26:42
Hey, hey!

Simone 1:26:43
*laughs* Continues, “Pan’s sexuality, when combined with his unwholesome visage, thus gave the aesthetics exactly what they needed. Since he had never been attractive to begin with, and Christians were wont to associate ugliness with evil (deformations and plagues of all kinds were seen as a punishment of God), Pan became the image of the devil.” Man, that’s really judgy. Poor pan.

Tabitha 1:27:10
Extremely rude.

Daniel 1:27:11
Prior to reading this essay, I did not realize that, although I load this up, this is true that there were more dedications to Pan than to the other, seemingly more prominent gods. I guess that makes sense since Pan represents things like- First of all, he is a nature and a shepherd god, and so, you know, when you have a, a population with, with a significant farming demographic, it does make sense that they’re going to gravitate to a god like that. Also, he’s the patron of things like, you know, music, and theater, and dance and fucking. You know, things that people do like to do, so, I- he’s going to have a popular image, there. Also being a nature god, he might have been a little bit older than the Olympian gods who become more prominent later, and so he might have just had time to build up a fan base. So. I’m going to put you over there[?]. Also, is Pan unattractive? I feel like people on the internet might have opinions about that.

Tabitha 1:28:03
*laughter* Yeah, I, I, uh, cough. I have opinions.

Genevieve 1:28:08
Wasn’t Pan also the god of wine? Am I remembering this incorrectly?

Daniel 1:28:13
Uh, Dionysus-

Simone 1:28:14
I believe that would be-

Daniel 1:28:15
Sorry, go ahead, Simone.

Simone 1:28:16
I was just gonna say that.

Daniel 1:28:18
Um, yeah, so, so Dionysus is the god of wine, also the god of theater. It makes sense if you were Greek, I guess. Pan was the god of theater critics. I don’t really know why, except that being associated with Dionysus, it would make sense that if you’re looking for a god of criticism, that you would go to two gods who hang out a lot. Pan is also the only God who is supposed to have died. And, speaking as someone who’s been a theatre critic for eight years now, I refuse to believe these are coincidental variables. *laughter*

Simone 1:28:55
Now going from ancient myths to myths that are a little bit more contemporary, we’ve actually got something here from Grimm’s Gairy Tales in 1812, The Lord’s Animals and the Devils.

Genevieve 1:29:08
From Grimm’s Fairy Tales, 1812, the Lord’s Animals and the Devils. “The Lord God had created all animals and had chosen out the wolf to be his dog, but he had forgotten the goat. Then the devil made ready and began to create also, and created goats with fine long tails. Now when they went to pasture, they generally remained caught in the hedges by their tails, whereupon the devil had to go and disentangle them, with a great deal of trouble. This enraged him at last, and he went and bit off the tail of every goat, as may be seen to this day by the stump. Then let them go to pasture alone, but it came to pass that the Lord God perceived how at one time they gnawed away at a fruitful tree, at another injured the noble vines, or destroyed other tender plants. This distressed Him, so that in his goodness and mercy he summoned his wolves, who soon torn in pieces the goats that went there.”

Simone 1:30:05
That doesn’t seem very merciful to me.

Tabitha 1:30:08
Yeah, what the heck? Also, like, God, why- are you not busy? *Simone laughs* Like, you’re really distressed at some goats, eating some plants like, chill out, dude.

Genevieve 1:30:20
Those were his noble vines.

Simone 1:30:23
I feel like you should have been able to make more, but- *Genevieve laughs*

Simone 1:30:29
Why don’t you take the next, the next passage.

Genevieve 1:30:32
Okay. “When the devil observed this, he went before the Lord and said, ‘your creatures have destroyed mine.’ The Lord answer, ‘why did you create things to do harm?’ The devil said, ‘I was compelled to do it, inasmuch as my thoughts run on evil. What I create can have no other nature, and you must pay me heavy damages.’ I will pay you as soon as the oak leaves fall, come then, your money will then be ready counted out. When the oak-leaves had fallen, the devil came and demanded what was due to him. But the Lord said, ‘in the church of Constantinople stands a tall oak tree which still has all its leaves. With raging and curses, the devil departed, and went to see the oak, wandered in the wilderness for six months before he found it, and when he returned, all the oaks had in the meantime covered themselves again with green leaves. Then he had to forfeit his indeminity, and in his rage he put out the eyes of all the remaining goats and put his own in instead. This is why all goats have devil’s eyes, and their tails fitting off, and why he likes to assume their shape.”

Simone 1:31:40
So the goat does have devil eyes!

Tabitha 1:31:42
Haha!

Genevieve 1:31:44
There you go. It’s right there in the Gimm’s Brothers fairy tale.

Simone 1:31:47
Didn’t realize that Saturday Night Live was so literary. *Genevieve laughs*

Tabitha 1:31:55
I just- the Devil’s like, ‘look at these amazingly cute like animals I made.’ And God is like, ‘these are dumb and I hate them, and now I’m gonna kill them all.’ And the Devil’s like, ‘Hey, you can’t do that. I’m gonna sue you.’ And God’s like, ‘Yeah, fine. Okay, I’ll give you your money…soon [TM]. And then the Devil’s like, ‘Alright, where is it?’ And God’s like,’*annoying god chuckles* I don’t think so.’ And then, and then- that’s the goats’ fault.? *laughs*

Simone 1:32:23
I know. He’s using a loophole to get out of paying for, paying for the damages against the poor goats. Doesn’t seem right.

Tabitha 1:32:32
Yeah, God sounds like an asshole.

Genevieve 1:32:35
Yet again.

Daniel 1:32:37
I’ve got a couple things to say about this story. One, this line here where the Lord asked him why do you create things to do harm? Oh, you’re one to fucking talk. *laughter* Second of all, I find it very interesting if you look at, you know, folklorists tend to classify fairy tales and folk tales by what stories are similar, like, they assign names to groups and then, you know, usually will filter one story into one group or another. When I looked it up, this story has no group. There is no other story like this that has been recorded and is still extant. It’s a weird thing on its own. The thing that I find most interesting about this bit where the devil gets outwitted by the thing with the oak trees is there is a, kind of a sturdy subgenre of folk stories in which the devil is this, sort of ineffectual, antagonistic, trickster figure, and gets outwitted usually by a, by a saint, or, or by, you know, a humble personage. I’ve never seen it being God before, but I guess that’s not necessarily surprising. And, I remember reading once the idea that, you know, these are very, very similar, and very obviously analogous to stories in which- fairy tales in which the humble hero outwits the ogre, or the giant, or the genie, or the witch, or the sorcerer, you know, who has all of this power, but is often, kind of, easily hoodwinked by them in that way. And it’s pretty obvious that during the Christianization process of these cultures, people just took those stories and changed the hero to a saint, or in this case God, and change the villain to the Devil, and then left the story completely intact. This story kind of smacks of that in my mind. When I say I read that somewhere, I actually don’t remember. If anybody out there knows which book has that anecdote in it, please let me know, because it’s actually been driving me nuts. I’ve been trying to cite it.

Simone 1:34:26
*laughs* That’s the story of our lives, is that we’ve read so much material that, you know, some of it just floats around in there and you can’t remember where it is.

Simone 1:34:37
Okay, now. Let’s jump ahead in time to something a little bit more recent, and, so we’re going to talk about the artist Francisco Goya. Now, Francisco Goya was a Spanish painter who was born in the mid-1700s and died in the, kind of, early side of the 1800s. You have definitely seen his paintings. First of all, if you’ve seen that really creepy painting of this dude devouring a smaller dude, and his, like, arm is, is hanging in his mouth, that’s your Goya. That’s Saturn devouring his son. But, Goya also painted a lot of images of witches and, you know, they’re Sabbaths, and lots and lots of goats. So, that brings us to this article here. ‘The horror is real: Goya’s supernatural works’ by Stephen Gambardella. “There are two possible readings of Goya’s dark paintings. The literal interpretation is that Goya, aware of the stories of moral and social breakdown across Spain, was portraying the Satanism and witchcraft as a kind of 18th-century horror for his rich patrons, as titillating for them as horror movies are to us.” I do like that point. If you don’t have movies, you can have some really cool and creepy paintings around and kind of get that same feeling when you walk down your hallway. “The ironic reading of the ‘dark paintings’ is that Goya wasn’t attacking witchcraft, but rather the opposite: he was attacking the organized religious authorities that mutually buttress the ruling classes. Even more liberal interpretations of Goya’s dark paintings go as far as suggesting that his depictions of witchcraft are satires of priestcraft, and that the witches are ciphers for priests who prey on people’s superstitions and fears. Now for us, there’s something dreadful in Goya’s paintings of the Devil, not in the appearance of the goat, but rather the people masked before him.” And, just as an aside, there’s a really- one of his famous works featuring a goat has got the big, kind, of black horned goat in the center, ringed by, by people, which is, I guess, sitting around him on kind of like, a grassy knoll. We’ll go ahead and post links in the, in the show notes. But so, “the witches appear to be less than human, abjectly obedient and drunk on superstition. ‘The Great He-Goat’ is seen as a horrific satire of the slide into superstition of Spanish spiritual life. It’s telling that on the wall directly opposite The Great He-Goat, and in the same unusual dimensions, Goya painted a pilgrimage to San Isidro. In this mournful painting, a procession of pilgrims making their way to San Isidro’s Hermitage of Madrid are no better treated in paint than the witches huddled before the goat-form of the devil. The front pack of people are distorted and seemingly singing a hymn. As a procession recedes, the pack of worshippers merge with the rocky landscape.” So again, you know, we’ve talked before about how a lot of our ideas of the way that things look are slightly more modern than we might attribute them to. So, you know, the ideas about what the Devil looks like has these words roots in, as we mentioned before, in the idea of what Pan looks like, but it’s also shaped by more recent culture and then, you know, modern pop culture, so the idea of, you know, this imposing goat with his, you know, creepy followers has, has been a thread up until more modern times.

Daniel 1:38:22
I just want to say, Goya has two paintings from this period that usually get called ‘Witches’ Sabbath’ or ‘The Great He-Goat,’ and in one of them, the Devil is this dark, silhouetted goat-like figure at the far left of the frame, and he’s actually quite creepy, and the other one he’s right in the center of the frame, and is well lit and it’s a much more vivid image of this figure, and that one cracks me up every time because you could look at the expression on the Devil’s face there, he looks like he has no idea what’s going on.

Black Mass Appeal 1:38:49
*everyone laughs*

Tabitha 1:38:49
He’s like, “Um, thanks for inviting me. Why am I here?” *laughs*

Simone 1:38:54
You know, I think- someone out there is gonna correct me, but there’s a video game called ‘Layers of Fear,’ where you are walking around this really creepy house that’s sort of changing around you, and the house is owned by this painter who’s gone mad. And, you know, I forgive the video game programmers because there’s only so many paintings you want to digitize and throw into this ever-expanding house, but one of Goya’s paintings, the first one that Danny described, is one of them, so you turn around a corner, like ‘Oh! There’s that goat again. Hey, goat.” But it’s a very creepy game.

Tabitha 1:39:28
That game is so scary. *laughs*

Simone 1:39:30
You know, it was pretty scary, but then we played Outlast, so that quickly got, *laughs* got shoved away.

Tabitha 1:39:39
Outlast was scary, too. Uhh.

Simone 1:39:42
All right. Well, I know that there’s still a ton to talk about on the goat front. If we’ve left off any of your favorite anecdotes, works of art, goat facts, then just let us know- you’ll have to contact us on social media, send us an email because, you know, the- We’re always willing to talk about goats, at length. But, before we wrap up, I just kind of thought we’d go around the, the table here and see what folks’, you know, favorite thing about goats is, you know, what maybe that you’ve learned that’s new, and especially, of course, in its relation to the Devil or, or Satanism. So, Daniel, any, any parting thoughts to share?

Daniel 1:40:26
You know, one thing that I neglected to put in the notes here is, if you go to Collin de Plancy’s Infernal Dictionary, which was a, as I mentioned on the show, previously, a gift to me around the holidays from some listeners, thank you very much. And you look up the section there on not goat, but he-goat, it has an entry for, because it’s not very, necessarily the most helpfully arranged reference book you’ve ever read in your life. The entry there includes an anecdote that apparently was contemporary to the 19th century, which is that: if you boil the blood of a he-goat and splash your face with it, you will suffer violent hallucinations for the rest of the evening. And I read that-

Simone 1:41:07
Why?

Black Mass Appeal 1:41:07
*everyone laughs*

Daniel 1:41:07
and I think, yes! That was my exact reaction. Great. Thanks, Collin, why would I do that? But apparently, this was simply an accepted folkloric anecdote from the period that he felt he wanted to include in there. I particularly like this because, even though we have struggled to try to explain why there are these superstitious associations between goats and these sinister, these seemingly harmless animals, mostly harmless as Genevieve points out, maybe sometimes, they, they earned that reputation a little bit, and these very malevolent ideas and yet, if you look at history, and you look at sociology, and you look at the history of religions, there are some degrees to which yes, these, these ties make sense, but there are also some degrees to which people just believe strange things, and the why’s and the wherefore’s elude us, maybe because they are lost to time, or maybe just because it is human nature sometimes to make connections between unalike things in a way that simply do not add up for the rest of us. And I kind of like that. I think the inexplicably of these things is part of what makes them intriguing. And that, that mystery just kind of catches in your brain a little bit. So these days, we refer to that as kind of, like, meme power, you know, once something becomes common enough, it has inertia on its own, and you don’t have to think about where it comes from. A lot of things in history, I think are like that, too. Once people accept the weird thing, then it no longer matters why they believed it to begin with. So, that is my, that is my closing thesis.

Simone 1:42:44
Tab, how about you?

Tabitha 1:42:45
I would like to share an anecdote about one time when I left the Oakland Zoo. *laughs* Daniel-

Simone 1:42:52
Go on.

Tabitha 1:42:52
Daniel and I had gone to the zoo, and it was very fun. I like to see the bats. They were cute. And on our way out, when you leave the zoo you crest this hill and you kind of zigzag down it till you get down to the bottom of it. Well, Daniel’s kind of tired, he’s already starting to snooze by the time we got there, and I literally start screaming at the top of my lungs because the entire hillside is covered in goats because I’m guessing they we’re doing some kind of clear because it is all, it’s just the hill, the whole hillside’s grass, and I start screaming and Daniel kind of wakes up from a stupor, he’s, like, “what? Ahh.” *Simone laughs* He, like, thinks that the car is crashing, I’m like, “GOOOAAAATTTTS,” like as long as I can. And I am kind of almost about to run myself off the road because I was so fucking excited. And, then we got to travel down this whole hillside full of goats, and it was probably in the top ten of the experiences of my life, so that’s- it’s not really the most profound thing, but it was the most exciting goat-related excursion. *laughs*

Simone 1:43:53
Yeah.

Daniel 1:43:54
She’s not kidding. by the way. Shen she screamed, I looked around, I expected, like, a truck to be bearing down on us. *everyone laughs* That is how full-throated an exclamation she shouted at that moment.

Tabitha 1:44:06
Well, and yeah, and I’m like, “goats!”. And he’s like, “what, what?!” And I’m like, “I’m sorry, goats!. I’m really sorry I’m yelling! GOATS!” *laughter*

Simone 1:44:13
Back, gosh, a couple years ago now, I was giving a talk on Satanism at East Bay Nerd Night. And, going before me was actually somebody from the Oakland Zoo, and they were talking about their conservation efforts, and she and I were chit-chatting before the show, and, you know, everyone knew what I was there for. Because I guess I fit the bill. But, you know, I was talking to the, the nice zoo lady, and, you know, talking about the animals that they had there, and she made mention that yes, they have goats, and then she said something, like, “But I’m sure you want to sacrifice them.” And I was like, “No! No, I don’t. I like them. Goats are our friends. And then, also, *sighs* if people want to continue to associate goats with Satanism, why are we sacrificing the symbol? That’s like before a football game, you know the Colt,s like, slaughter horse on the football field- that makes no kind of sense to me. Anyway, Genevieve, any, any parting thoughts or wisdom about goats that you’d like to pass along to folks who might not know?

Genevieve 1:45:22
You know, I would encourage everyone to have the experience that Tab just described.

Tabitha 1:45:28
Yeah!

Genevieve 1:45:28
*laughs* Um, if at all possible, come visit some grazing goats, whether you are fortunate enough to encounter hundreds of goats on the hillside outside the Oakland Zoo, which happens every year. I know the people that bring those goats there, and it is a really, really, truly exhilarating site. But, you can also just come visit a City Grazing public site. Anyway that you can encounter goats, get a little feel for all of that excitement and the whimsical nature of them and their opportunistic ways. It’s, it’s a great symbol. It really is. Goats are, you know, they, I think they are as- they’re both incredibly evil and incredibly delightful all at the same time. They make my working life always fun, and always interesting, even when they’re making you crazy, *Simone laughs* breaking through fences and finding new ways to open gates. As long as they can not open padlocks, we’re still secure, so they’re not using keys yet, so we’re okay. *Tabitha laughs* But yeah, you know, it’s- they, they really are a lovely animal to spend time with, especially in they’re being less than perfect. I love that about them.

Simone 1:46:48
Now, real quick, because we just didn’t cover this in the rest of the episode, but if you, a human being, are meeting a goat, and you want to pet said goat, what is the best way for a human to approach a goat so that they’re safe and comfortable?

Genevieve 1:47:04
Great question. Let the goat smell your hand, and then, they almost all really love having their shoulder scratched.

Simone 1:47:14
Oh.

Genevieve 1:47:15
Just kind of, rather than putting your hand up over their head, which might make them shy away from you or wonder what the heck you’re trying to do their horns, reach around the outside of their body, give them a little scritch scratch on their shoulder, and then if you really feel the need, because those horns are very tempting, aa goat that has horns, you do want to put your hands on them, they are fast. So, come up their neck slowly, give them little scritches, just like you would a cat.

Simone 1:47:42
You know, again, enjoying shoulder rubs, I think that we can all relate to more than we think.

Tabitha 1:47:49
Yeah.

Genevieve 1:47:49
Right? *laughs* Yeah.

Tabitha 1:47:49
I’m also petitioning to change our, our create a tagline of ‘very evil and very entertaining’ for us.

Black Mass Appeal 1:47:58
*everyone laughs*

Simone 1:48:01
All right. Well, Genevieve, thank you again for joining us, If folks want to use City Grazing services or just find out more, where can folks find them online?

Genevieve 1:48:11
Citygrazing.com.

Simone 1:48:14
Perfect.

Genevieve 1:48:15
That’s our website, and if you just google ‘San Francisco goats,’ we will show up. We’re really easy to find online.

Simone 1:48:22
Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us.

Genevieve 1:48:25
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Simone 1:48:29
And if you want to get in touch with us about goats, or any other devil thing, you can always email us at Blackmassappealpod@gmail.com. The website is Blackmassappeal.com, and you can find us on most social media platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram as Black Mass Appeal.

Daniel 1:48:47
If you want to find out more about Satanic Bay Area, check us out at Satanicbayarea.com. Find us on Facebook, on Instagram as Satanic Bay Area, or you can follow us on Twitter, the handle there is @satanicSF. In the past, you could have come on down to Wicked Grounds coffee shop for Satanic Coffee Hour on the third Thursday of every month, but for obvious reasons, that is on hiatus. instead, pay attention to our Google Calendar and our social media to find out when we are having our next online meeting via Jitsi. And Tabitha, next time we do that, what are we going to be having?

Tabitha 1:49:18
Copious amounts of alcohol!

Black Mass Appeal 1:49:21
*Simone and Daniel woo*

Daniel 1:49:22
That sounds like an excellent plan. And that also sounds like a great note to say ‘Hail Satan’ on, are we ready?

Tabitha 1:49:29
Yeah, let’s do it.

Daniel 1:49:32
3-2-1-

Black Mass Appeal 1:49:33
Hail Satan!

Tabitha 1:49:35
*goat sounds*

Black Mass Appeal 1:49:37
*Sound of Music’s ‘The Lonely Goatherd’ plays*

The post Episode 76 – Scapegoats appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.