The post Episode 180: Frankenstein appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>Our shocking Halloween season show disinters some Satanic perspectives on Mary Shelley’s modern Mephistophelean marvel, “Frankenstein.”
The post Episode 180: Frankenstein appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>The post Episode 179: Rainbow Black w/Maggie Thrash appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>We color our perspectives about Maggie Thrash’s new book “Rainbow Black,” a Satanic Panic parable for readers on every spectrum.
The post Episode 179: Rainbow Black w/Maggie Thrash appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>The post Episode 176: The Hot Satan Episode appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>It’s all led up to this: We unveil our understanding of everyone’s favorite sidepiece of Satanic statuary, the rock-hard foundation of our Modern Satanic perspective, the one, the only–Hot Satan.
The post Episode 176: The Hot Satan Episode appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>The post Episode 143 – Deadly Sins: Satanic Wrath appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>
We’ve reached the point in our exploration of the Seven Deadly Sins where we’re mad as Hell and we’re not going to take it anymore. Joining us in feeling out the shapes of Wrath.
The post Episode 143 – Deadly Sins: Satanic Wrath appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>The post Episode 101 – Satanism 101… Part 2 appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>
We’re getting back to basics as we use our 101st episode to review some Satanism 101 — with the benefit of a few years’ extra perspective.
Simone 0:00
Welcome to Black Mass Appeal, a podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on Black Mass Appeal, we’re getting back to basics as we use our 101st episode to review some Satanism 101, with the benefit of a few years extra perspective. Also, Satanic Bay Area is getting ready again to count our blessings. And in the news, a priest is having some textbook issues with the Devil. Joining me today I’ve got Daniel.
Daniel 0:05
Hi, my name is Daniel. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area and I’m a member of the Satanic Temple, and this is the first time I’ve ever had to repeat a class in my life. I don’t know what this is gonna be like. *Simone chuckles*
Simone 0:25
Also joining me is Tabitha.
Tabitha 0:27
Hey, this is Tabitha. I’m an administrator for Satanic Bay Area and I had to take algebra in summer school one time. Math is hard.
Simone 0:33
Yeah, I’m there but the grace of Satan go I. *Tabitha chuckles* Except I just spent my summers locked away in nerdy debate camp, so that was kind of by choice, which I don’t know what that says about me. Anyways, my name is Simone. I am an administrator for Satanic Bay Area and I already told my little story, so. Black Mass Appeal is a product of Satanic Bay Area and it is not associated with any other Satanic groups. This is a podcast for Satanists to discuss modern Satanism, its history, left leaning political activism, and how Satanism relates to current events and pop culture, or for people who want to learn more about modern Satanism, whether you’re a newbie or already involved in Satanic groups. And speaking of Satanic groups, what has Satanic Bay Area been up to lately, guys?
Daniel 1:06
Well, it’s summer once again, in case you hadn’t noticed somehow.
Simone 1:09
Ugh. It’s so hot. *Tabitha groans and Simone laughs*
Daniel 1:10
And that means this time we are getting ready for Pazuzu’s Blessing, one of our- I guess we can’t call it a tradition because we’ve only been able to do it once. We wanted to do it again last year, but we had to cancel, so it’ll be a tradition after this. After we repeat it from its 2019 premier. Pazuzu’s Blessing is one of our favorite black mass ritual gatherings, and we are holding it’s August 1, Sunday at Ocean View park in Albany, California. Albany is right there on the border with Berkeley, for those of you who can’t quite place where Albany, California might be. Same place we were a couple of years ago, actually, we figured it worked so well the first time, why not again.
Simone 1:31
Yeah, we’ve mentioned on the show before that, kind of, since we’re a newish organization and we’re still figuring out some things, we have these rituals that we’ve, kind of, adopted as being regular traditional rituals for our group, but we’ve only done them once before. *Tabitha giggles* And Pazuzu’s Blessings is one of those, because we had it in 2019 and it was *so* much fun. Really good turnout; really good time and we, of course, wanted to do it again in 2020, but, you know. So, even though this will only be our second time around doing it, it feels like an older tradition and we’ve been looking forward to it so, for so long. So yeah, very excited.
Simone 2:50
Tabitha, you wanna fill people in on what Pazuzu’s Blessing consists of if they were not listening in 2019?
Tabitha 3:10
Well, most of Pazuzu’s Blessing is us just talking about how awesome we are, which is, like, pretty exciting. I feel like, I feel like a lot of people need an excuse to be like, ‘hey, this is the thing I did and it was really good,’ and this is a perfect excuse for that. So, we get up there, we have a little bit of a ritual, or a little sermon sort of thing. People get up and say, ‘hey! This is what I did this year that I’m really proud of,’ and then we all hail them, and then they get a flower crown, and then at the end of it, we throw flowers all over the place. Did we throw flowers all over the place? *laughs*
Daniel 3:40
I feel like there were flowers all over the place last time; that can’t just have been my imagination. Yes, Pazuzu’s Blessing is an opportunity for us to acknowledge and celebrate personal milestones in our own lives. Sometimes, those can be things that are very big and very obvious. Some people are starting families, some people are starting new careers, some people are starting school or finishing school, or have some great projects that they have had in mind for a long time that they are finishing or nearing the end of, or just have something, have some really remarkable way their life has changed. Other people, you know, might have some more quiet and personal goals that they have hit, maybe just a really profound decision that they’ve come to, maybe something that they have resolved to do many times in their lives and only recently succeeded, or maybe they are resolving to do it now for the first time, maybe there is something that they have in the past really wanted, but have lacked the opportunity to do and so are embarking on that now. And that is really what Pazuzu’s Blessing is all about. We originally conceived of it as a counterbalance to the remembrance ritual we did in 2019, which is sort of a mourning occasion. This was instead a celebratory occasion, so we wanted to balance that out a little bit, and yeah, like Simone said, I feel like this one was a hit for us the first time around so fingers inverted crossed that we’re gonna pull it off again this time. Anyway, once again, mark your calendars. Sunday, August 1. Oceanview park in Albany. You can find details on Facebook, on our Google Calendar. Check out our other social medias as well, where we will be advertising, and, you know, if you are a Bay Area local and you’ve been looking for an opportunity to come meet some cool Satan-y people, this might be a good one. And of course, if you have joined us before, we are always happy to see you again.
Simone 5:24
Yeah, I always look forward to uh. ‘Me! Fuck Yeah!’ Because that’s kind of the tone of the event. *laughter*
Daniel 5:31
It’s a good vibe, yeah.
Tabitha 5:33
Also, last month, we made flower crowns for it, which is another, like, crafting event that I like a lot. It’s, it’s fun because I feel like anyone can really do it. Like, it’s not, it’s not one of those things where like, ‘oh, well, I’m not good at cross stitch or I’m not good at etc. Whatever you’re working on.’ This is just like, No. You just put flowers on some wire. *Simone chuckles* Put the wire together and make sure it’s roundish, and then you’re good. *laughter* So- and also, they look so good on people. We had such beautiful photos from the last one.
Simone 6:03
Everyone looks good in a flower crown.
Tabitha 6:05
It’s true.
Daniel 6:06
And speaking of ‘me, fuck yeah!’ *Simone laughs* I think- you know one of my favorite parts of our show? When listeners say cool stuff about us.
Tabitha 6:14
Ooohh.
Daniel 6:14
And I think we’ve got some of that lined up for you right now, don’t we?
Simone 6:17
Indeed. So, time for listener reviews. And- said before- listener reviews, we appreciate anyone taking time to leave a review, no matter where it is. Traditionally, we’ve been reading from Apple Podcasts, but they- whoo! Man, from what I’ve heard, they have gone completely down the toilet in terms of that app’s usability, but people can still leave reviews there if it’s somewhat difficult. We’re also looking at Podchaser for people leaving reviews. And then if you feel that you’ve left it someplace where we might not see it, or we, it was sometime in the past and we didn’t see it, drop us an email! We just love to hear the feedback, good, bad, anything in between, and so now we’ve got a couple of new reviews to read. This one comes from Vanilla Knux, who says “Sooo informative- As a baby Satanist, this podcast has been a great resource. I highly recommend to anyone curious about Satanism.”
Tabitha 6:41
Well, we did it. We can just pack this thing up. *laughter*
Simone 7:13
*laughing* Yeah. I do have to wonder- like, the people who are just curious about Satanism. They have had no exposure. Maybe they saw the documentary Hail Satan; maybe they saw something in the news and then they stumble upon us. I wonder how it goes for folks who have very, very, very little exposure to actual modern Satanism, and then see what us dorks are up to. *Tabitha chuckles*
Daniel 7:42
Yeah, it’s actually kind of a big problem. People hear about Satanism in the news, maybe, or maybe they know somebody who knows somebody who knows some Satanists, but there are not a whole lot of easy, accessible, straightforward resources that really educate you on this topic. Simone mentioned the documentary Hail Satan. That is one of them; that is good, although it’s not as comprehensive as we have been over, say, 100 episodes. Although, to be fair, they have like, what, 90 minutes to work with, so. And then, what else is there? I think- I would have assumed that a lot of people would go read the Satanic Bible-
Simone 8:11
Yeah.
Daniel 8:12
But even times, a lot of times people don’t even think to do that. Which, you know, in itself is a resource that is only going to tell you a little of the story about modern Satanism-
Tabitha 8:19
Yeah, I feel like that’s a boon. *laughs* Do not read it!
Daniel 8:21
-in the 21st century- *more laughter*
Simone 8:22
I feel like, I feel like it all depends on what your method of entry is. Like, do you have a crazy aunt who lived in San Francisco in the 60s and 70s and so you know a little bit about Anton Levey? Well then, maybe you’ll go that way. Maybe you stumbled across the documentary Hail Satan on Hulu, so maybe you go through TST. Maybe you are just super into, you know, Christopher Lee Hammer films where he’s either *laughing* a Satanist or someone fighting a Satanist. Well, I don’t really know where you go from there, other than watching more Christopher Lee films, which I *Tabitha laughs* advocate for. But, however folks find us, I’m just always interested to know what their impressions were about three real people really talking about really running as a Satanic community and also how much we love our cats. I don’t know. *Tabitha laughs again*
Daniel 9:12
The few books that are published about Satanism every year are either academic works-
Simone 9:16
Mmhmm, yeah.
Daniel 9:16
-which can be very good, but they can also be opaque and difficult to find-
Tabitha 9:19
Or very dryyy.
Daniel 9:20
Yeah, depending on, depending on the writer. Or, they are these kind of self-published books by first-time Satanist authors. Some of which are good-
Simone 9:28
Correct.
Daniel 9:29
-and some of which are of varying quality.
Tabitha 9:32
Rates.
Daniel 9:33
So there’s not really a lot of go-to’s. [It] would be nice if there was an accessible, comprehensive overview of the topic that was more readily available to more people. Which is why, for example, we do things like this episode we’re recording right now, which, hopefully, hopefully, will be a good tool for some curiosity-seekers in the future. I will say that Vanilla Knux here says “a good resource for anyone curious about Satanism.” On the other hand, I feel like this is a terrible resource for anyone who was in-curious about Satanism. *Simone laughs* Can you imagine there’s, like, some- one really frustrated listener, like, ‘man, when are these guys gonna get off this? I’ve been with the show for a long time. I feel- I assumed they were gonna move on at some point.” *laughter*
Simone 10:12
Well, we’ve known from some other previous reviews that were quite irritated at our left-iness, that not everyone reads or listens to that beginning, kind of, description, logline, disclaimer, *chuckling* about what this show is about, so I would not be surprised if someone has stumbled across us going, you know, ‘when are they going to talk about, you know, nature documentaries. That’s what I’m here for.’ *Tabitha chuckles* All right. Well, our next review comes from Captain Spastic who says, You’ll laugh! You’ll cry! You’ll actually learn something! Few podcasts keep my interest for more than a few episodes. These hosts are not patronizing, they’re intelligent, fun, and happy to involve all, using their own learning. Eight thumbs up, says Cthulhu.”
Tabitha 11:03
Wow, that’s some deep praise.
Simone 11:07
Whomp, whomp.
Tabitha 11:07
Booo. *laughs*
Simone 11:10
Well, I guess, so. Wait. So Cthulhu is humanoid. He’s got two arms, implying, you know, two hands and two thumbs, and then he’s got the tentacles on his face, so it’s still only really be two thumbs up. Unless he’s got the extra somewhere?
Tabitha 11:29
I don’t know. I mean, maybe- Yeah, maybe he’s hiding some of them. We don’t know. He’s asleep. *laughter*
Daniel 11:36
We are making some very humano-centric assumptions about Cthulhu and how he expresses approval here.
Simone 11:42
That’s true. Maybe, maybe Cthulhu expresses his approval by not murdering us all.
Tabitha 11:48
‘Eyyyy.
Simone 11:49
In which case we’re doing pretty good.
Tabitha 11:50
Yeah.
Daniel 11:51
So far, yeah. *Simone laughs*
Tabitha 11:52
That was us-
Tabitha 11:53
And then a foot stomps through the roof, like the- *Tabitha laughs* or a hand reaches up like the end of-spoilers- Cabin in the Woods. Anyway,
Daniel 12:00
Great movie. By the way-
Tabitha 12:01
I thought you were gonna say foot like, like Monty Python, you know *Simone chuckles* Like, *sings* dun dun dun. *fart noise* *laughter*
Daniel 12:07
By the way, I have to say it is very generous of Captain Spastic to say that I’m not patronizing. I think we all know that’s a lie. Although, Satan is the Prince of Lies, so that is appropriate. *laughter*
Simone 12:17
I don’t know, I just- I feel like on this show, we, I mean, try to be really real and not condescending, but I know that, in our hearts, we all can be really condescending about some things.
Tabitha 12:31
Yeah.
Simone 12:31
Like, don’t talk to me about, you know, action films, especially Die Hard because I will take a very irritating tone of voice *Tabitha chuckles* and then bore you with a list of facts. So here, here, I’m trying to be real, but it’s not to say we couldn’t be patronizing.
Tabitha 12:47
It is very possible. *Simone laughs*
Daniel 12:49
On the subject to patrons!
Simone 12:51
Ahhh!
Tabitha 12:52
Oooh!
Simone 12:52
Very good transition.
Tabitha 12:54
Jeez.
Simone 12:55
Well, so we have our Patreon and Patreon is the sole means by which we financially support this show and then also the works of Satanic Bay Area, so if you like what we’re doing, if you could just throw us a buck and we appreciate the contributions of every single person and we’ve got a new set of contributors to thank. So the first up, we have Terrence Nash, and then in the Mark of the Beast Club, which are the folks who are contributing $6.66 per month, we’ve got TJ Currie, Andrew Fox, and Toshiioo!
Tabitha 13:32
Toshiioooooo!
Simone 13:32
I said it like that because there’s a lot of vowels at the end. Like, there’s, like, two I’s and two O’s. Also I liked seeing it that way.
Tabitha 13:39
Toshiioooooooooo. *Simone laughs* Ooooooooo! *laughter*
Daniel 13:47
It’s the little things.
Simone 13:48
Yeah, we’re recording in person again and so, we all just kind of looked at Tabitha and she…
Tabitha 13:52
Look! *laughter* I don’t know what you want from me other than ‘ooooooooh!’
Simone 13:57
No, that’s what I want from you.
Simone 13:58
Yayy! Oh, good!
Simone 13:58
Like, that was, that was right on.
Tabitha 13:59
Wait! Oh.
Daniel 14:00
*chuckling* That was your cue.
Tabitha 14:01
I nailed it! Yes! *Simone laughs*
Daniel 14:04
We’ve got, we’ve got a lot of ‘yes and’ improv rule around here, I feel like. *Simone laughs*
Tabitha 14:08
True.
Daniel 14:10
Speaking of ‘yes and’s’ Yes, if you back us on Patreon, you are helping produce the show *and* you get a few extra rewards. For example, I just put out another episode of Conspiracy Weary, our backers-only bonus show where you get to hear me talk about the strangest anti-Satanist sentiments floating around the internet. On this most recent one, I devised a drinking game around the conspiracy-themed subreddit, which was a terrible idea. *Simone laughs* Definitely don’t do that ever in your life, but why would you? Why would I? Why did I? You’ll have to listen to find out. Also, as we record this, we are taking nominations over, from the backers for themes for upcoming Black Mass Appeal episodes. Which, in a couple of weeks, the backers will be able to vote on which of those will actually manifest into real shows down the line. You control our dark and attributable destinies. We are completely at your mercy *Simone laughs* in this one limited capacity.
Simone 15:09
Yeah.
Daniel 15:10
Nevertheless, I feel like it’s quite a lot of power to wield over us, actually.
Tabitha 15:12
True.
Daniel 15:13
Especially because we have had some great backers-selected episodes in the past. If you go back to- what did we do most recently? We did the Highgate Vampire-
Simone 15:20
Yep, that was popular.
Daniel 15:21
That was a big winner on the poll. What were the other shows that we did after that?
Simone 15:26
You’ll have to excuse us- we’ve done so many of these shows now *laughs* and also, we’ve got pandemic brain, so I can hardly remember what we did *laughing again* in the last couple episodes sometimes. But, you know, so for, for Black Mass Appeal, we three, we get together, we talk about topics that we’d like to cover, maybe some things come up in the news that’s made something a little bit more timely, maybe it’s an interesting- topic that’s always interested us and we just haven’t gotten to it yet. So we have, kind of, a bank of ideas, but we also love hearing what our listeners want to hear more of, and so this is an opportunity for folks to nominate and vote the topics that they’re interested in and it’s, you know, led to some really cool and fun shows.
Daniel 16:07
So, if you have been listening and said to yourself, ‘man, I like this show. What’s a good timely opportunity to help get in on making this happen every month?’ This. This is a good opportunity. Go over to Patreon, pledge any amount per month, you too will be able to pitch some show ideas and vote on the poll when it comes up in a little bit and then reap the dark fruits *chuckling* of your labor. Later in the summer and fall, I think, is when we’ll probably be getting to those shows. And, of course, we want to give a shout-out. Thank you very much to TJ Currie, Andrew Fox, Toshiioooooo, Terrence Nash, and everyone else who backs us on Patreon. Everyone who ever has backed us on Patreon and, you know, even if you haven’t backed us on Patreon, thanks very much for listening to the show. That helps, too. That’s the form of support that means the most because otherwise, we would just be three weirdos in a small, sweaty room talking into microphones for no reason. *laughter*
Tabitha 16:58
Uhh, so hot.
Simone 16:59
Four weirdos! There’s Jesse right here.
Daniel 17:00
Well, yeah, but he ain’t saying shit. *Tabitha laughs*
Simone 17:03
Damn it. Okay. I was trying to goad him. All right, well, let’s go ahead- Not goat him, goad him. *Tabitha does her weirdly realistic goat sounds, Jesse does, too?* *Daniel laughs* We’re gonna take a break and we will come back with the news.
Black Mass Appeal 17:16
*interlude music*
NEWS
Tabitha 17:16
*old-timey breaking news doots*
Simone 17:33
So that means it’s, it’s time for the news.?
Tabitha 17:36
*in a silly voice* It’s time for the news!
Simone 17:39
The doots, the time for the doots is the time for the news?
Tabitha 17:41
Yes, doot news time. It’s new, new news dootin.’ *laughter*
Simone 17:49
Okay, um, well, today we are unfortunately reading from the New York Post. I say unfortunately because it’s a bit of a rag but it’s a- well, you’ll see why we got our eyes caught by this, this article here. “US priest: Exorcisms on the rise as demons now haunt victims by text.” I mean, how can we pass up that one? “Battling demonic forces is regular duty for Monsignor Rossetti, a Catholic priest who worked in two parishes in the Diocese of Syracuse for five years. Now based in the Washington DC diocese, he and his team perform up to 20 exorcisms each week, liberating people- and homes- from what he calls ‘demonic and satanic evil.’ And, the 70-year-old told The Post, exorcisms have ‘grown exponentially’ in the past decade or so. The United States, wracked by discord and a moral crisis is ‘demonically oppressed. I think this is going to get much worse before it gets better,’ he said…Rossetti alleges he’s seen demons at work: doors banging, TVs turning on and off spontaneously, dogs howling uncontrollably, victims communicating in ancient languages they never learned- even spewing foreign objects like nuts and bolts.” Dogs and cats living together. Total chaos! *Tabitha cackling louder and louder* “‘There are stunning things that happen that are not humanly possible,’ he said…And then there was the young woman who reached out to him after an upside-down cross appeared ‘burned’ into her shoulder. At the same time, her dad was receiving ‘snarky’ text messages from demons. *Tabitha cackling* ‘The texts were a typical demonic rant: She belongs to us,’ Rossetti said. Rossetti said the messages appeared to come from the phone number of the woman. Upon careful investigation, however, Rossetti insisted there was no evidence of her having sent the messages.”
Daniel 19:51
Wait a second! *laughter*
Simone 19:55
You know, like, a priest doing an exorcism with a background in, like, IT- *Tabitha laughs* I wonder how far they would get.” The woman had more to worry about than text from Hell, though.” I’ve gotten texts from Hell; they’re called texts for my ex.
Tabitha 20:12
A-oh.
Simone 20:13
“‘As a child, the father dedicated her to Satan,’ Rossetti said. ‘If someone is perverted enough to join a satanic cult to begin with, then it’s not a stretch to imagine them offering their children to their ‘god…’ Rossetti was appointed a diocesan exorcist by his bishop in Washington. By his telling, ‘the Blessed Virgin Mary picked me for the job.’ He trained in Rome and in the US under a senior exorcist and has been involved in many hundreds of exorcisms since 1999…The Monsignor admitted that many who think they are ‘possessed’ or ‘oppressed’ by demons are, in fact, suffering mental illness. But he’s seen enough to believe.” Yeah, yeah, all this hard evidence like dogs barking a lot because they never, they never do that.
Tabitha 20:59
Nope.
Simone 21:00
Tabitha would not know anything about dogs barking.
Tabitha 21:03
*sighs* My, the dog next door definitely doesn’t bark if a person walks by, or a dog walks by, or a car goes by, or a bird- *chuckles*
Simone 21:09
Does that, does that dog tell you- is his name Sam? Does he tell you to do things?
Tabitha 21:14
No, his name is Simba. *laughs* [editor’s note: Simba is a sweet boy, just a loud boy!]
Simone 21:17
Ok. Alright. Just gotta double-check. And then, you know, the TV’s turning off and on. I believe there’s, you know, buttons and remote controls *Tabitha mmhmm’s* that can be, you know, possibly responsible for that or-
Tabitha 21:26
Or even, like, sleep modes and stuff that TVs have.
Simone 21:29
Oh my god, you know what I just put together? My Roomba is possessed by a demon.
Tabitha 21:35
Oh shit! *Simone laughs* Did you ask its name? *laughs*
Simone 21:39
It just calls itself Roomba.
Tabitha 21:40
*disappointed tone* Oh.
Simone 21:41
So, yeah. It is supposed to take itself to with little dock when it’s done doing its thing, and multiple times now, it has taken itself to its dock and then removed itself from its dock and gone about vacuuming a second time without being told, so clearly, clearly, I need an exorcist to, to pull the demons and, hopefully, maybe empty the dustbin. *Tabitha chuckles* Because that’s annoying to do it all the time.
Tabitha 22:08
Or maybe an electrician. One of the two.
Simone 22:10
Yeah, so mmm. Some hard evidence no one can dispute.
Tabitha 22:14
Mmhmm.
Daniel 22:15
Yeah, like, doors opening, TVs turning on, dogs barking. These are all just elements of our everyday world *Simone laughs* operating as they’re supposed to. The other big sells [?] and, of course, you hear these all the time in these quote, unquote exorcist stories. Look, I have seen a number of exorcisms, at this point- not in person, but, you know, recorded exorcisms. They’re very boring. They’re very- there’s nothing remarkable going on in any of them, and the stories always outstrip the experience. The ones you get here are people speaking languages they couldn’t possibly know. I gotta tell you, man, if somebody is speaking Latin to you, it means they know Latin. What- this really just means that you have a failure of imagination to conceive of how they know Latin. But case in point, I just read a book called “Possessed,” which was about the exorcism of Robbie Doe in 1949. That exorcism being the case that later inspired the writing of The Exorcist, and indeed, Robbie spoke Latin. But as one of the many priests who conducted those many exorcisms on him pointed out, he was just repeating the Latin phrases that the priests were saying. They’d been praying over him in Latin for weeks. Of course, he learned some Latin. *Simone laughs* Come on, this isn’t that hard. And then finally, the trick of regurgitating objects. That’s a stage trick; people can do that. I couldn’t do that, but I could learn to do tha and apparently then get a free exorcism out of the deal. *laughter* But in any case, these attention-seeking exorcists are always planting stories like this incredulous- publications like the New York Post. Here, obviously, the only reason we bothered to bring this up is the text messages.
Simone 23:37
Yeah.
Daniel 23:38
You gotta have a gimmick. You gotta have a gimmick if you’re gonna want to get some attention these days as an exorcist. What was that bit about her, her dad dedicated her to Satan?
Simone 23:47
Yeah, that was really- so- just some like random-
Daniel 23:51
And I- who, who wrote this story? Can we get some follow up questions on that, please? *Tabitha laughs*
Simone 23:54
Yeah, so the, the woman is, she thinks that she’s possessed, she’s dealing with some shit and then the dad is also getting weird texts that look like it’s from his daughter, but the priest says that there’s no evidence that it’s from the daug- you can delete that! Like, you could just go on your phone and delete your sent messages. This is not hard.
Tabitha 24:14
Mmhmm.
Daniel 24:15
Yeah, again, it’s not that hard- If you get a text message from a certain phone, it’s probably that person who was sending you that message. This is not that difficult. It’s also very easy to fake where messages come from.
Simone 24:24
Yeah, to spoof. I mean-
Daniel 24:26
But, that doesn’t mean the Devil is doing it either. It probably just means somebody’s talking with you, especially if they hear that you think you’re possessed. That’s probably- there are probably some unkind people who might take advantage of that. *chuckles*
Simone 24:36
Yeah, but still, just, like- the, so- the, the father and the daughter are both going through some shit and priest is just, like, ‘oh, yeah, it’s because the father dedicated his daughter to Satan.’ Wait. I’m sorry, what?
Tabitha 24:46
The wha-? When did- when?
Simone 24:47
When- Who said that?
Tabitha 24:48
How? Where?
Simone 24:46
Are you assuming? Are you just assuming that you must, he must have done it in the past because certainly, no other explanation would, would suffice.
Tabitha 24:52
You know, why? I have, I have many questions.
Simone 25:02
How does the dad feel about this accusation? *laughter*
Daniel 25:04
I assume this is a story the family tells- something we have discussed before is that claiming to be a former, reformed Satanist is a good way to get attention for yourself.
Simone 25:11
Yeah.
Tabitha 25:12
Mmhmm. mmhmm.
Daniel 25:13
This is the more of the kind of thing I would expect if you dedicated your firstborn to Verizon, which is why you have to read those terms and conditions very carefully before you check the little box. *laughter*
Simone 25:20
it’s not worth the iPhone upgrade!
Tabitha 25:22
I just love the idea of a demon, like, down in Hell, like, ‘okay, I gotta go up to the mountain to get cell service. I gotta fuck with this guy really quick.’ *Daniel cackles*
Simone 25:30
What emojis do you think that the demon was using? *Tabitha cackles*
Tabitha 25:33
The fucking monkeys.
Simone 25:35
Oh, yeah,
Tabitha 25:36
The ‘hear no evil’ monkeys.
Simone 25:37
Or, or I’ve learned recently- I mean, we’re all about the same age. We are elder millennials. I have learned that the children do not use emojis and they do not use reaction gifs. These are old and cringeworthy. I don’t know what they use instead. Probably something on Tik Tok that I don’t understand.
Tabitha 25:56
I will use reaction gifs until I die. They are my favorite. *chuckles*
Simone 26:00
They are so perfect- they encapsulate entire emotions and reactions. Anyway-
Tabitha 26:04
Also, I don’t give a shit what the next generation thinks and *stage whisper* neither should you.
Simone 26:09
*chucking* Yeah.
Tabitha 26:09
*continuing to stage whisper* Relax!
Simone 26:10
But what I want to know- what, what tactic is the demon taking?
Tabitha 26:15
Mmhmm.
Simone 26:15
Is it-
Tabitha 26:16
Is the demon an elder millennial? *laughing* Is what you’re asking.
Simone 26:20
The demon is an Eldritch millennial.
Tabitha 26:21
Ohhhh!
Simone 26:23
I’m just now imagining demons doing Tic Tok dances as a means of cursing and possessing people. *Tabitha laughs*
Daniel 26:31
You know, actually, Tabitha’s on to something here, talking about how demons go to get cell service. Something I didn’t mention on our history of Hell episode. That was what? I think show number 97. The idea that demons live in Hell is relatively new *Tabitha hmm’s* and not that well established. Originally, the idea is that demons live in the upper atmosphere, under heaven, but above Earth. That’s why in some of the New Testament, they referred to Satan as the prince of the powers of the air. *Simone mmhmm’s* So clearly, demons are cellphone satellites!
Black Mass Appeal 27:04
*excited gasping and oh’ing*
Daniel 27:04
They’re sending the texts!
Simone 27:06
And that’s why when you get vaccinated and you get your 5g chip, it’s coming from the Devil!
Tabitha 27:11
Mmhmm.
Daniel 27:11
It’s all coming together.
Tabitha 27:13
Mmhmm.
Simone 27:13
Oh my- oh, wow!
Daniel 27:14
You gotta bounce your text messages off of a demon and if he wants to fuck with it, he’s got every opportunity.
Simone 27:18
Oh, this is very good.
Daniel 27:21
See, look, we did all of the legwork for this priest and he’s not even going to thank us. *laughter*
Tabitha 27:26
This is gonna come out as a conspiracy theory. You’re gonna do one of your episodes be, like, guess what happened? Somebody listened to our show and now it’s a thing.
Daniel 27:32
Ah, yeah, you gotta be careful what you put on the internet. I will say, I prefer when the Devil texts because last time he left a voicemail, hundreds of scorpions came out of my phone and that was very inconvenient. *Tabitha chuckles*
Simone 27:41
You know, and also, there’s nothing more demonic than just trying to FaceTime someone without warning them first. So rude. [so true. i’m never prepared.]
Tabitha 27:49
Yes.
Simone 27:49
So unacceptable. Clearly the work of the Devil.
Tabitha 27:52
Also, on the flip side of that is accidentally starting a FaceTime with people and they’re like, ‘oh!’ and they get ready and then you’re, like, ‘help! I didn’t mean to. Help!’ *laughter*
Daniel 28:01
In all seriousness, though, if you ever start to suspect that you are the victim of demonic oppression, or possession, you’re not and you should talk to a doctor. Not the doctor your exorcist sends you to.
Simone 28:13
Yeah.
Daniel 28:13
Get a better doctor. Seriously. *Simone chuckles*
Simone 28:18
All right, well, we’re gonna go ahead. We’re gonna take a break and we’re gonna come back with the beginnings. Satanism 101, all over again.
Black Mass Appeal 28:37
*Maxine Nightengale’s Right Back Where We Started From plays*
MAIN TOPIC
Simone 28:47
It’s time to repeat ourselves as 100 episodes of Black Mass Appeal have brought us right back to where we started. Four years ago, we tried to give listeners the very basics of modern Satanism in our first episode. But, since Satanism is always a learning experience, we’ve since come into a much broader and more diverse understanding of our Luciferian lifestyles. So, today, we’re getting a do-over and presenting Satanism 101, Part Two.
Tabitha 29:15
The revenge.
Simone 29:16
*chuckling* Son of Satanism. *Tabitha laughs* No, that’s a different episode.
Tabitha 29:20
This time it’s personal. *Simone laughs*
Simone 29:22
You know, it’s funny, so over four years ago, we all gathered in Tabitha’s Satan shed, *Tabitha chuckles* which now hosts a beautiful, gigantic alter.
Tabitha 29:31
That’s true.
Simone 29:32
And we had, like, our little microphones that we’d scrounged up and our- my little laptop in the center and we recorded 57 minutes of, kind of echoey, but not bad material, where we were establishing this show, and who we are, and what we believe in. And so, we know that not all of our listeners have gone back and listened to the previous episodes and I don’t blame you, so we thought we, kind, of just do, like, a reset. Like, reintroduce ourselves, reintroduce what it is that we’re doing here.
Tabitha 30:03
And this time, I won’t be high on painkillers. Which is good because last time I was extremely high on painkillers. *laughs*
Simone 30:10
Well, you didn’t bring enough for the class, so.
Tabitha 30:12
Yeah, sorry.
Simone 30:13
And we, we don’t have grapes. We had grapes for, like, the first three episodes that we recorded.
Tabitha 30:18
*laughing* Oh, right? We talked about those grapes a lot.
Simone 30:20
I know.
Daniel 30:22
Those were prescription painkillers, for the record.
Tabitha 30:24
Yes! Yes, it was. Yeah. It was some, I had-
Simone 30:26
For a hot second, I thought you’re gonna say they were prescription grapes! *laughter*
Tabitha 30:29
They were also prescription grapes. They were from my mom. It was- not the painkillers. *laughs* The grapes!
Simone 30:35
Each, each grape had a tiny painkiller, like, shoved into it. *laughter*
Tabitha 30:40
Oh, no. Oof, that was a- it’s funny, because, like, thinking back on that time- man, I was going through a real rough patch. It was my back that was my problem, so, now you know. *laughs*
Daniel 30:50
I would say that just like the show has had pretty much the same structure and pretty much the same aims and values the entire time, but now we are, perhaps, a little bit better at communicating those and making the audience aware of, say, the way the show is put together. Same thing, here, I would say that my attitudes and opinions about Satanism are largely what they were four years ago, but now I have just done a better job of refining them and learning to communicate them. So, even if you have been with us ever since that very first show- by the way, thank you very much for sticking it out. We really appreciate your support particularly. Even if, I think then this will still probably be a useful and enlightening episode for you.
Simone 31:31
Well, let’s get started with the start and just sort of talk about, briefly, who we are, who the- that’s one of the things I’ve always, you know, when talking to people about podcasting, you have to figure out who are you and why the fuck should people care?
Tabitha 31:47
Mmhmm.
Simone 31:47
Why the fuck should people listen to what it is that you’re saying? Why do people care about what Daniel, Tabitha, and Simone have to say? Well, in general, we run a Satanic community in the San Francisco Bay Area. It’s pretty populous. We’ve got a lot of really great people. We’ve been doing this for some years now. We’ve been very practiced at it because we do a lot with it, including this show. And so, while you can take that or leave it, one of the reasons for doing this show is to impart that experience. Let’s start with Daniel. *chuckling* Who are you and what are your general Satanic beliefs?
Daniel 32:26
Hi, my name is Daniel Walker. I am an organizer for Satanic Bay Area, a group that we founded back in 2014-15, excuse me. We were called twi- San Francisco for a little while there, and people ask you questions like, what is Satanism? What does that mean? What do Satanists believe? And, as we’ll get to some of the sources we’re gonna discuss in a little bit, that is a surprisingly difficult question to answer, but when asking for myself, I usually say things that I believe in things like humanism, education, reason, rationalism, feminism, basic human rights, religious freedoms, and pluralism, and I believe that, for hundreds of years, Satan has been used as a metaphor, and a symbol, and a fictional character who represents and communicates all of those values, in art, and in literature, and in popular culture. The Satan that I take personal inspiration from is not identical to, say, the Satan of the Romantics- you can hear about back on, what was that? Episode 75, we did Romantic Satanism? But it is very clearly inspired by that, and I have an awful lot of sources that I will go to refer to that give me a very sound idea of what words like ‘Satan’ mean to me. At the same time, it’s not just that I believe in these values, I also take personal profound inspiration in Satan as a character and as something that pushes me to be a better version of myself. Sometimes people ask if you’re atheists, why do you call yourself Satanists? Why not just call yourself atheistS? And the answer that is, well, I’m not just an atheist. I also really, really love this story, and this aesthetic, and this tradition, and this milieu- is a word we’re going to use a few times in this show. And that really, I think, what makes a person a Satan, a Satanist at the end of the day. There are lots of people in the world who share my same values and are not Satanists, and that’s because they don’t have that, if you’ll pardon the expression, relationship with Satan that I think we all do. *Tabitha chuckles* At the same time, I think all three of us at this table, and everybody listening, has a different idea of who Satan is and what that word means, and that’s by no means unusual. I actually think all religions work that way. I think that when everybody goes to church on Sunday, nobody there is really worshipping the same God and the same Jesus. They might think they are, but I think that they’re wrong and I think that it is actually, as, as was said on our friend, Steven Bradford Long’s blog earlier this year- maybe it was last year, [unitelligible]. In our case, this is a feature, not a bug. It’s actually very empowering to be able to create your own religious iconography, in this way, and to get to do it consciously and intentionally, in a way that serves you instead of, say, a 2000-year-old institution.*chuckling* So, anyway, I could go on about- and I have, at length, but I feel like that’s a lot to start with.
Simone 35:03
Yeah, yeah. Tabitha, what about you?
Tabitha 35:07
Well, geez, take my answer, Daniel! *laughter*
Simone 35:10
I know, I know.
Tabitha 35:12
Hi, my name is Tabitha Slander. I’m an administrator for Satanic Bay Area and I do all of our art, including our amazing logo.
Simone 35:19
It is [an] amazing logo. I’ve got a 3D-printed right over there, so.
Tabitha 35:22
But no, I think the only other thing I’d like to bring up is just, kind of, finding strength within yourself, of realizing that you are good enough and that, and the story of Satan for me, actually, does reflect that quite a bit as just being, like, ‘well, here I am. This is isn’t quite where I expected to be right now, but I’m happy here and I’m glad to be doing it.’ So, basically, just, let’s just copy-paste what Daniel said, but also, meeeeee! *laughs*
Simone 35:54
Put a little hyphen at the bottom, ‘Tabitha Slander’.
Tabitha 35:57
Yes. It was my quote. Cough. *laughs*
Simone 36:01
Wayne Gretzky, Michael Scott. *Tabitha laughs again* Well, so my name is Simone Lasher. I’m also an administrator for Satanic Bay Area, and, again, a lot of what Daniel said, and I think it’s- that’s part of the reason why we three, I think, works so well together. We’re really on the same page about a lot of things. *Tabitha mmhmm’s* But, you know, slight differences, slight different life experiences that brought us here, to this point, and so, for me, you know, I grew up as an atheist, but it kind of always bothered me that atheism tells you, you know, tells the world, the one thing you don’t believe in. It doesn’t really tell you anything else. It can imply- I think a lot of people here ‘atheist’ and infer that you might be, you know, humanists, or liberal, or whatever, but that’s not actually true, especially if you spend more time in the atheist community. You see that it is- there’s a lot of godless people out there and some of them agree with you politically, and some of them don’t, so it’s not that helpful, as a, as a designation. And so, I was always interested in, you know, like, the, the occult and horror movies, and so I had some exposure to the idea of Satanism and looked into a little bit with the Satanic Bible, later heard some talks by Jex Blackmore, and I realized that the Satanism that’s out there, mostly, now, is stuff that I already aligned with. You know, I am a Feminist, pretty hard left-leaning, you know, believe in, you know, being an ally for the LGBTQ-plus community, Black Lives Matter, all the stuff, so that aligned, and then the whole- layering the whole idea of, like, a Satan character on top of it to sort of embody that was really interesting to me. Because, you know, a lot of religions have their figureheads or whatever, but a lot of them seem to think that they’re real. Here, we know that it’s a story. It’s a metaphor; it’s an archetype; it’s, it’s illustrative, you know, and so, it’s given us a guide for the aesthetic, it’s given us a lot of material to read, and digest, and take in. And so, you know, the, the modern amalgam character of Satan, I feel is really representative of a lot of my beliefs, and so it all just kind of clicked right into place.
Daniel 38:24
I actually want to add a couple of things that I was reminded of when Tabitha talked. I think there’s a couple of really critical values that we haven’t mentioned here. A lot of the time when people talk about Satanism, you hear them talk about individualism and the individual, but oftentimes, it’s very elusive what that means. *Simone mmhmm’s* I have started to favor, instead, a word that somebody mentioned on our Instagram last year, where they said ‘selfhood.’
Simone 38:44
Mmm. I like that.
Daniel 38:45
And I really, really love that.
Tabitha 38:47
Mmhmm.
Daniel 38:47
And that is actually something that’s very hard to find in, not only conventional religion, but in a lot of the institutions of society- don’t necessarily want us to emphasize our own identities and our own rights to identity in a way that is healthy for us and I like to think that Satanism has been a great tool to explore that theme. And also, the idea of choice-
Simone 39:08
Yeah, absolutely.
Tabitha 39:08
Mmhmm.
Daniel 39:08
-the idea of personal choice, something I harp on quite a bit is this idea that the word ‘heresy’ comes from the word meaning ‘to choose,’ and so, you know, a lot of the times people want us to opt for the choices that have already been made for us, and sometimes those are okay, but we should at least have the option of deciding for ourselves, and I feel like Satan embodies and represents that, as well as another theme that a lot of people talk about the idea of challenging, *collective mmhmm’s* challenging authority, challenging the status quo, even just the basic concept of change, the idea that things should be changed, or at least should be changed- or should be able to change is something that sounds basic, but the more you look at it, you realize it’s actually very, very difficult. It’s something that a lot of the assumptions that we are, make, or are forced to make, are very hostile to.
Simone 39:49
Yeah, you know, we had our Seven Deadly Sins episode quite a while ago, and that was one that really stuck with me because looking at the things that a lot of, you know, Christianity and other religions called sins, are things that I think that could actually be motivators to improve one’s place in life. *Tabitha mmhmm’s* Like, if you see someone with something that you want, you go, ‘oh, well, maybe I should work and get that for myself.’ And it’s been a motivation. Maybe someone has wronged you, and you’re angry, so you work, you know, to overcome that, or- I’m not advocating for, like, stealing other people’s shit or for taking, you know, some vigilante revenge, but these things that are called sins can be used to [improve] your station in life and I realized that they don’t want you to. *chuckles*
Tabitha 40:35
Right.
Simone 40:36
They don’t want you to question. They don’t want you to work to, you know, move outside of your, your station. They don’t want you to shake up the system, and I was, like, ‘oohhh. Yeah, no. Satan is definitely the one I want to be with on this one.’
Tabitha 40:51
Right. It’s like the, just the idea of not, like, it’s like the anti-oppression. It’s just the idea that, ‘no, no, like, you don’t. No, you don’t have to do it. Whatever it is, no. It’s fine. It’s fine to be angry.’ It’s okay to feel all of the range of feelings that you have. In fact, you probably should, otherwise it might not be great for you later. Like, you know, some Christians that are feeling very persecuted for no fucking reason. *laughter*
Daniel 41:19
Since we’ve mentioned Satanic Bay Area a few times already, we should probably fill people in on what that is and what that means. Again, even if you’re a longtime listener, it might have been a while since we maybe spelled this out. So Satanic Bay Area is a local, grassroots, Satanist community, based in and around San Francisco that we hel- that we helped found about five or six years ago, and we exist to promote Satanic community, left-leaning political activism, and religious authenticity for all of our members. Like I said, we say we are a local grassroots, I don’t always term nondenominational-
Simone 41:54
Yeah.
Daniel 41:54
but we don’t really care what kind of Satanist you are.
Tabitha 41:57
Yeah.
Daniel 41:57
We care whether you get along with everybody, whether you more or less share our goals, and whether you want to show up and participate and be part of everything that we helped create here, and so we have a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds. A lot of different Satanist religions, and organizations, and philosophies, and also people who are just kind of Satan-curious and even some people who really only kind of identify as Satanist through the work that they do with us, which is actually very exciting to watch.
Simone 42:02
Yeah, I mean, we have people from all different religious backgrounds who have then come to Satanism. We have people who are committed to the idea of Satanism in different ways. You know, we have some folks who, kind of, you know, a little bit of what Daniel was saying earlier, some people who believe very much what we believe, they just, they just don’t want to use the S-word, and that’s fine. They are, like, our great Satanic-adjacent friends and members. And yes, we are an independent group. We are not run by or in collaboration with any other of the larger Satanic denominations that you might be familiar with. We founded ourselves, you know, by ourselves, and we just are, kind of, self-governed. We have kind of a flat hierarchy in terms of, you know, nothing terribly formal in terms of, you know, heads or leaders of anything. It’s just whoever shows up to do the work and we also do some collaborations with our nearby Satanic groups, including TST, including non-affiliated groups, and we just kind of enjoy doing our own thing.
Daniel 43:33
One thing that’s interesting to contrast, maybe with our first episode is, especially in the last six or seven years, we have seen a lot more attention paid to atheistic Satanism in America and a lot more people getting into that, and so, obviously, that’s because of, mostly because of the Satanic Temple. I’m a member of the Satanic Temple and perfer- I identify very closely with their Seven Tenets, and so do a lot of our Satanic Bay Area members, and I know a lot of our Black Mass Appeal listeners. But I also know that just in the last couple of years, we have also seen a growth in new, different independent Satanic organizations that are maybe very similar thematically to the Satanic Temple in many ways, but, for whatever reason, are pursuing their own, different courses and that has actually been very fascinating to watch. I know from observing history that a lot of Satanist religions and organizations are short-lived, but maybe some of these will also endure and become interesting and unique traditions on their own. It’s also been very interesting seeing groups grow that, kind of, have their own experimental identity, that are not 100% sure what sort of ideology and framework they want to follow but still feel very invested in this idea of Satan and Satanism. That has been really, really intriguing to watch, so that is something that has changed, a little bit, maybe, since we recorded the first episode- become much more diverse field of the applications of the S-word. *Simone chuckles* than there were even just a few years ago.
Simone 44:50
We don’t have any, like, formal numbers on, you know, the number of Satanists across the country or in different organizations, but just, you know, from my perspective, standing here, and having been involved very heavily in the last four years or so, it’s been an explosion. I mean, just, you know, big cultural touchstones of, you know, Satanic-themed, you know, pop culture, movies, TV shows, the Hail Satan documentary, you know, TST popping up in the news, some other organizations, Satanic organizations popping up in the news more and more, and so it’s been really interesting to watch this growth and this evolution because it’s not the same, you know, even- we’ve got more people, of course, but then also, the, the groups have changed and evolved, and, you know, the philosophies have been discussed and have been, you know, argued and have become more nuanced, and there’s just so much more out there, like, other Satanic podcasts popping up, more Satanic books being published. It’s been really great to see this growth.
Tabitha 45:54
Also, something that I think needs to be said about us, and probably other groups too, is that, like, the fact that we have just, kind of, catered to our own social groups in the sense that, like, like, I like doing our art night, and that’s something that’s really important to me, and that’s something, I think, is really special about our group. And also- I mean, probably every group is the same way, *Simone chuckles* but, like, we have our own little special things that we do, say, the art nights, or our own rituals, and that sort of stuff, and I think that it makes each group really its own thing, and I think that’s actually what makes us special- is that we have, you know- and it’s not just, like, the big things like rituals, but, like, little projects we do-
Simone 45:58
Yeah.
Tabitha 46:02
-or, like, you know, I like, I like doing the cemetery walks and that stuff, as well, so we have our own- like, when we used to do the salons, which I’m sure we will get back to again.
Simone 46:38
*chuckling* Yeah.
Tabitha 46:39
It’s just our own little, little spins that we put on these things that make it, make it into something that you can be really proud of.
Daniel 46:46
I think the big secret that I’ve clued in on over the last four years, as Tabitha points out, is that self-expression is a fundamental part of religion.
Simone 46:54
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Daniel 46:54
And also, *stage whispers* don’t tell anyone, but religion is also a form of self-expression. *Tabitha and Simone laugh*
Simone 47:01
So, that’s a little bit about us and Satanic Bay Area, and, well, you’re listening to a podcast right now that was born out of us and Satanic Bay Area. Just over four years ago, now, we decided- well, Daniel and I, Daniel and I had been interviewed by a college student who was working on an audio project, and he was just interviewing us about, you know, Satanism, and in general and stuff, and so we finished the interview, we went over to a bar, over in [the] Haight, I think, in San Francisco, and we were just talking about, you know- we hadn’t known each other terribly long, but we just had this really interesting and good interview, and we’re talking about Satanic Bay Area, then Satanic San Francisco, and the direction we, kind of, wanted it to go in and how we could do that, and some, you know, potential projects, and I’d always been interested in podcasting. I have a little bit of a background in radio; I have a bunch of friends who are podcasters, and so I always wanted to, you know, have a podcast but didn’t want to do it the wrong way. *chuckles* I didn’t want to have another, you know, dumb comedy podcast where my friends and I just sit around and bullshit. Like, those never turn out well, unless you’re, like, a trained, professional comedian. But the idea of a podcast to talk about Satanism was very interesting because it allowed for longer conversations, more in-depth conversations than you might get just from flitting around on Twitter, or whatever. It would not be a high cost of entry, whereas, like, you know, a video, or a video series, or a movie might be, you know, bit more of a time and money commitment, and we could be consistent with it and release it, you know, consistently over time. And, you know, especially at the beginning, we were a little bit concerned about anonymity, and protecting our identities, and that kind of thing, and certainly, it’s still a concern. It’s a concern if you’re a Satanist in the world *chuckles* so, but it- just all these things sort of lined up that made podcasting a really good idea, a really good fit, and so, you know, we put together our first couple episodes, and they went pretty well! You know, I’m sure you could hear a difference in the sound quality, since, you know, before we had Jesse, helping us out, and also in our just own personal, like, ability to speak and, and research, and write for the show, and so yeah, so that’s how this podcast came to be.
Tabitha 49:33
You know what’s funny, when we started the podcast, it was really, you know, I was on the first couple of episodes because we were doing it in my garage, and, and I didn’t actually think I was going to be on it for that long. I just figured,’ oh, we’ll just do the first couple because we’re doing it in my garage, and then when they get, you know, when they really get things moving then I’ll, you know, I don’t really have to be on it. Because- it’s funny, I have this, kind of, like, seesaw thing where I’m, like, ‘I don’t really want attention, please do not perceive me. I need to be on all the things!’ *laughter*
Simone 50:01
Yeah, yeah.
Tabitha 50:02
Yeah, so that’s, that’s really my takeaway from it, is that I’m really glad that I’m on it. I’m really glad that I get to talk to you all about me, *laughter* but, but also just, like, don’t look at meeeee! *laughs*
Simone 50:17
Okay, now we’ve all told you who we are and why we’re here. Let’s talk about the other beginnings, the beginnings of Satanism, as in, ho the hell is Satan?
Daniel 50:30
Right, so no points for guessing. The root of Satanism is Satan, but-
Simone 50:35
No!
Tabitha 50:35
What?!
Daniel 50:36
Yes.
Tabitha 50:37
I’m leaving. *Simone laughs* The podcast is over!
Daniel 50:40
But who is Satan? What does that word mean? I think all of us feel like we have an idea of this character, but it’s very, very hard to articulate it sometimes and it is especially difficult to trace where this story comes from. And- this is something I’m happy about- back in 2017, if you’d asked me to answer this question, I don’t think I would have given you a comprehensive enough reply that I would be happy about. Now, on the other hand, I am going to give you the really, really fast- is Cliff Notes a dated reference at this point?
Simone 51:09
Yeah, do kids know what cliff notes are?
Tabitha 51:10
I don’t know. What would be the, like, the wiki page?
Daniel 51:13
Well, there were-
Simone 51:13
I guess so.
Tabitha 51:14
The wiki synopsis?
Daniel 51:14
There used to be SparkNotes, but I feel like nobody even uses that anymore.
Tabitha 51:17
Hmm.
Daniel 51:18
In any case, I’m going to give you the bird’s eye view, bat’s eye view-
Tabitha 51:22
You gotta- the down and dirty version. *giggles*
Daniel 51:25
Yes, the down and dirty version of Satan. Are we ready?
Tabitha 51:29
Yes.
Simone 51:30
Mmhmm.
Daniel 51:30
All right. So here’s how this works: Satan is a Hebrew word, variously translated as accuser, persecutor, enemy, obstacle, etc. In his book, The Satan, Bible scholar Ryan Stokes argues that Satan specifically means something like ‘attacker’ or ‘executioner’ which is an interesting perspective, feel free to check that book out if you’d like- that’s another thing I noticed about this episode, the bibliography is a lot longer than our first show four years ago. *laughter*
Simone 51:53
So, essentially, that kind of Satan was more of a job role than an individual character.
Daniel 51:59
Well, we’re getting to that.
Simone 52:00
Aha!
Daniel 52:00
So if you read Jewish scriptures, like Job or Zachariah, we are introduced to a character called Ha-Satan, ‘The Satan.’ Although as Simone likes to point out, they dropped ‘the’ after a few years because?
Simone 52:11
It’s cleaner.
Daniel 52:12
Yes. Now, seemingly-
Simone 52:15
*laughing* Does anyone get that reference? It’s, like, from The Social Network, but it was mostly in the trailer, with Justin Timberlake telling that to the Mark Zuckerberg character. Wow. No one uses Facebook anymore. Anyway. *Daniel laughs*
Tabitha 52:28
I was gonna say, ‘hhaaahhhhh, Satan.’ *laughter*
Daniel 52:32
Now, seemingly, the Satan is an angel and he has the job of persecuting mortals for their sins- these books don’t come out and explain this, it just seems to be the cultural context of it. Presumably, the people who were thought to be the audience for these texts are, already knew this. Although he is adversarial, the Satan is apparently obedient to God’s commands, he acts as an adversary for humankind instead of an enemy to heaven. [if anything here sounds like a direct quote, I’m pretty sure it’s just because Daniel is a great writer] In his book, Satan: A New Biography, UCLA Professor Henry Kelly argues that any angel could serve as the Satan, but generally these days we imagined him as a specific character. During the Second Temple period, which is around 500 BCE to 70CE, many Jewish preachers adopted an apocalyptic point of view. They imagined the world as a constant conflict between supernatural powers of good and evil. And increasingly, these preachers assigned blame for worldly evil to a kind of chief evil spirit character. In her book, The Origin of Satan, Princeton Professor Elaine Pagels writes, these stories were allegories for the fraught religious politics of the period, in which we have these reactionaries and extremists who believe that our fellows are just not sufficiently dedicated to true Jewishness, and so they imagined that them as being corrupted by the evil powers represented by this devil character.
Tabitha 53:49
*giggles* So they’re not true cult. *laughter*
Daniel 53:50
Yes! Actually, *more laughing* Yes, that’s exactly what it was. *laughs*
Simone 53:55
And they, they really- they had to, you know, which, which chef is it that says, you have to kick it up a notch?
Tabitha 54:01
Oh, uh, Emeril Lagasse.
Simone 54:02
Thank you. *Daniel giggles* I thought, I thought that was gonna be Guy Fieri, but I was wrong. So, it wasn’t enough that you had religious disagreements with your fellows. You- it had to be kicked up a notch into a ‘cosmic conflict.’
Daniel 54:14
That’s a, that’s a-
Tabitha 54:14
You had to, you had to bam. [IDK if that’s what Tabby actually says – I don’t get the reference, sorry!]
Daniel 54:16
That’s exactly how Pagels puts it in her book. She said the question wasn’t who is Jewish- it was assumed that we are all Jews, we being you know, Judea at the time, obviously, not everybody here in this room. It is assumed that, that was assumed- the question was, which is the Jews are really on God’s side and which of them had been led astray? That was the religious conflict these people were having at the time, and we saw this manifested in a lot of different ways, in a lot of different characters. For example, one of the texts at the time, the Book of Watchers: here we learned that the story of how certain angels become sinful out of lust, and they spread all manner of evil teachings to humankind, and they have a leader angel who sometimes called Samyaza, or Azazel. I think it was actually in Kelly’s book where he points out that we probably have two different names because this was probably a couple of different stories that got mixed together, and so they’re a bit inconsistent. In some books that are included in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Devil is called name’s like ‘Belly-All’ [typing this out phonetically; he’s talking about Belial]- No- I always screw that one up; is it ‘Belly-All?’
Simone 55:07
Beh-LIE-ul?
Tabitha 55:08
I, I like Beh-LIE-ul.
Simone 55:10
That’s how I say it.
Tabitha 55:11
But I don’t know if it’s right, but also I don’t care.
Daniel 55:14
I think, I think that’s-
Simone 55:15
Let’s just summon him real quick and ask him.
Tabitha 55:16
Right.
Daniel 55:16
Yes-
Simone 55:16
That’s-
Tabitha 55:16
*makes wagging tongue sound* [that’s the best I can describe it, the gifs looked right when I googled it]
Daniel 55:18
I think it’s Belly-All.
Tabitha 55:19
I’m speaking in tongues, do you hear it? *more wagging tongue sounds from Tabby; laughter*
Daniel 55:24
Well, sometimes he’s [Belial], sometimes he’s Melikrisha, sometimes he’s the Angel of Darkness- that one’s really metal, actually.
Tabitha 55:29
Mmhmm.
Daniel 55:29
And then in texts like Jubilees, he’s Mastema, who is the king of evil spirits, who is, we see, submissive to God in that book, but he also acts as an antagonist for the prophets, especially for Abraham and for Moses, so he, sort of, he walks a fine line there between working for God, but also constantly trying to meddle with God’s plans. And then, other texts for the time reference names like Beelzebul, Asmodeus, or the Prince of Darkness, but most often, he was just called Satan. I imagine, because, that was a name with pedigree. And, around this time, the Jesus cult, in particular, liked to adopt Satan as a villain for the gospel stories and Jesus appears to preach about Satan at various points in the gospels. It’s not necessarily clear who the Satan he’s referring to is all the time, but nevertheless, that idea is at least kicking around. In the centuries to come, Rabbinic Judaism mostly retired the Devil. They decided that the blame for human evil was human nature, and not supernatural agents, but Christianity, liked Satan, and kept him around, and so we end up with these distinct religious traditions today, even though, you will notice, most of the texts that are important to explaining who the Devil is, and its origins and his motivations are not ones that make it into the holy books. Now they’re instead what we call Apocrypha, those ancient books that were once considered religiously authoritative and now have been kind of forgotten, or laid aside-
Simone 56:52
On the cutting room floor.
Daniel 56:53
Yes, not considered canonical. So, that is a really, really broad overview of who Satan is and where he comes from. There are a lot of other issues, like, why do we imagine that Satan is an angel, for example. There’s nothing- that’s not answered here. Also, something that I spent a long time trying to figure out myself- think I’ve got a good answer now, but we just don’t have enough time on this one show *laughter* to delve into all the details. You need, you-
Tabitha 57:15
*stage whispers* That’s why we have a podcast. *laughs*
Daniel 57:17
Yes.
Simone 57:17
Yeah. I enjoy how Christianity decided they liked keeping Satan around because it meant that nothing was their fault.
Tabitha 57:25
Right. I also loved the idea of him retiring, and then being brought out from retirement for *laughing* one more job.
Simone 57:31
I’m too old for the shit! *Tabitha continues laughing*
Daniel 57:34
Well, in any case, the reason why I characterize these as difficult questions to answer is because, if you’ve never read the Bible- by the way, good for you. *Simone giggles* Nah, actually, it’s, it’s interesting reading. Sometimes, yes-
Tabitha 57:45
I haven’t read it, so, we’re in the same club.
Daniel 57:46
If you’ve never read the Bible, you might naively assume that it tells you who the Devil is and where he came from, but in fact, it does not, or at least, the references are fleeting and obscure. There’s actually very little about Satan in the Bible. Go check out our Satan in the Bible episodes for more on that. Instead, you’ve got to do a surprising amount of research into non-biblical texts to try to piece together answers to what seemed like very basic questions, so we did we’ve done our best there to fill you in, as best we can. For more information, see the previous 100 episodes. *laughter*
Simone 58:17
Well, now that Daniel has told us who Satan is, it’s time for the ultimate question of, what is Satan-ism?
Tabitha 58:26
The myth of a secret cult of evil people consorting with demons and practicing evil magic is probably as old as human religion itself. In his book, Children of Lucifer, Satanism scholar Ruben Van Luijk, writes that early Christians imagined heretics- rival church traditions- to be servants of the Devil, but only indirectly. For a surprising number of centuries, the idea of heretics actually worshipping Satan was surprisingly rare, although with time, it became more common to accuse heretics, “witches,” and especially Jewish people, of consorting with Satan.
Simone 59:02
This reminds me of a Twitter argument I got in recently where someone was insisting that there were no actual Satanists, Satanism, or Satanists were words used *solely* for accusations against other people. They didn’t actually exist; it was only a name being used to call the out-group, the heri-heretic group, or whatever. And I was like, *smacks her lips* ‘yeah, except, no Satanists are real because I am one.’
Tabitha 59:31
Yeah, except hi. I exist. *Simone laughs*
Daniel 59:34
Something I want to add, by the way, that mentioned there about the relationship between antisemitism and early accusations of Satanism. Right here on the table in front of me, I’ve got a copy of Joshua Trachtenberg’s The Devil and the Jews, which I’m in the middle of right now. This book is wild and it answers a lot of the questions that I’ve had, or prevents potential answers, to a lot of the questions I’ve had. For example, you ever wonder why people assume that Satanists commit animal and human sacrifices? It seems like a very strange assumption. Well, it might be because, once upon a time, they believed that Jewish people were running around-
Simone 1:00:04
Yeah.
Daniel 1:00:04
-committing nefarious sacrifices. And they then just, kind of, folded that antisemitic trope into increasingly, an increasing variety of out-groups over the centuries. So, it’s kind of a tough read sometimes, but really worth it. Anyway. Sorry.
Simone 1:00:20
Okay, so steering us away from other people calling other people Satanists. *Tabitha hmm’s* Starting at the end of the 18th century, certain European writers, artists, and political dissidents began identifying with Satan in a positive way. And especially with the 17th-century epic poem of Paradise Lost. We did a whole show on it. Freethinkers, religious radicals, and Libertines like William Blake, Flora Triston, George Sand, and Lord Byron imagined Satan as a rebellious individualist and God as a corrupt tyrant. These Romantic Satanists probably did not think of themselves as Satanists in the religious sense, but they did have some pretty daring ideas about religion, spirituality, and the Devil that influenced our future, or current, understanding.
Tabitha 1:01:04
This is when Satan got hot. I just wanna- *Simone laughs* We can just gloss over the whole thing. Satan got hot! *laughs*
Simone 1:01:11
There’s a whole statue about it.
Tabitha 1:01:12
Yep. In his book Satanic Feminism, scholar Per Faxneld proposes that 19th-century Polish novelist Stannis, Stanislaw ‘Perverscezzy-‘ [this one’s way too hard to type out phonetically, the dude’s name is Stanislaw Przybyszewski. Just no, Tab def can’t pronouce it and, because of course he can, Daniel totally can]
Daniel 1:01:25
Przybyszewski.
Tabitha 1:01:26
Fuck you. *laughs*
Daniel 1:01:27
No, no- it’s Przybyszewski. *laughs* [joke being that he pronounced it the same way as he did before, because the dude’s name is NOT ‘fuck you.’ Lolz]
Tabitha 1:01:30
*still laughing* Fuck you! Fuck this name!
Daniel 1:01:33
I’m doing my best, here, Przybyszewski. [continuing the joke]
Tabitha 1:01:34
Stanislaw P! *laughs* -might have been the first person to publicly identify as a Satanist. Thanks for having really complicated name, dude! *laughs* I want to celebrate you! *Simone chuckles* Oddball Danish Freemason, Ben Kadosh [pronouced how it looks], might also- I want to say ‘Kadoosh,’ because I’m, apparently, Jack Black. *Simone starts cackling* -might have been the first person to found a religion specifically about Satan, or Lucifer as he seemed to prefer it, *uses a silly voice* which was popular at the time! *Simone and Tabitha laugh*
Simone 1:02:02
*laughing, also in a silly voice*As was the style at the time!
Tabitha 1:02:04
Thank you! Although it’s not clear whether he attracted any followers in his day, early 20th century sects like the Knights of the Golden Arrow and Brotherhood of Saturn similarly revert, revered the devil but didn’t last.
Simone 1:02:18
Yeah, so those are some very, very early actual Satanists, but, as you can see, they had some limited success.
Tabitha 1:02:25
Right. Probably got killed for it. *Tabitha and Simone laugh*
Daniel 1:02:29
By the way, Tabitha, if it’s any consolation, if you read stuff from Przybyszewski, you probably wouldn’t want to celebrate him, actually.
Tabitha 1:02:34
Oh.
Daniel 1:02:34
*laughing* He’s kind of a dick.
Simone 1:02:36
Stan P, you suck!
Tabitha 1:02:38
Yeah, fuck you, Stan. *laughs*
Daniel 1:02:39
I also should point out that [to] say, the Brotherhood of Saturn is still around. There are actually two groups that claim to be the Brotherhood of Saturn, but at this point, they don’t seem to have much to do with Lucifer anymore. They kind of buried the Satanism a little bit. They were originally an offshoot of Steven, Steven Crowley- who the fuck is Steven Crowley? *Tabitha cackles* *Daniel laughing* Aleister Crowley’s-
Tabitha 1:02:59
*laughing* Steven Crow- *in a fake serious voice* John Crowley. *continues laughing*
Daniel 1:03:02
Yes.
Simone 1:03:04
Now I’m just picture-
Daniel 1:03:04
It’s- Folks, it’s really hot here, okay. *Tabitha starts laughing again* We’re doing our best.
Tabitha 1:03:07
*laughing* It is!
Daniel 1:03:07
Anyway, yes. Originally, protegees of Aleister Crowley and so, they went in some interesting directions after that. *Tabitha tries to stifle her giggling*
Simone 1:03:15
Well, now moving into the 1960s in the US, we get to, the one that most people know, Howard Luh-Vay. [spelled LeVey]
Tabitha 1:03:24
P U! [i’m just now realizing I have no idea how to write this…]
Daniel 1:03:27
Sorry, Lee-Vee.
Simone 1:03:27
Lee-Vee?
Daniel 1:03:27
Mmhmm.
Tabitha 1:03:27
*gasps dramatically*
Simone 1:03:28
Oh, my goodness. *Tabitha laughs as she finishes her dramatic gasp* So- of course, now, I’ve associated the name Howard with Howard the Duck and I’ve got a really interesting mental picture going on. *Daniel laughs*
Tabitha 1:03:37
Ugh, I hate it! *fake vomit sound* *laughs*
Simone 1:03:39
Run, Lea Thompson, run. Okay, so, in 1966, Howard LeVey [pronounced how Daniel did], who was better known by his public name, Anton Levey-
Tabitha 1:03:48
P U.
Simone 1:03:49
founded his Church of Satan in San Francisco. Now, eventually, LeVey promoted the idea that he believed in Satan only as a metaphor, making the Church of Satan an *atheistic* religion, and establishing atheism as, you know, kind of surprisingly, if you think about it, the *norm* for American Satanists. Rival religion the Temple of Set, which revered the Devil, or Set, as a *real* spiritual being, broke away in 1975. In the decades since, there have been dozens, or even hundreds, of small Satanic sects founded, most of them small, local, and often brief in their tenures. You know, it’s funny, the, the meme going around that the Confederacy only lasted for years so other things, comparatively, should be more culturally treasured.
Tabitha 1:04:37
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:04:37
So I mean, you know, Satanic Bay Area, been around longer than the Confederate, Confederacy did.
Tabitha 1:04:43
Nice!
Daniel 1:04:45
So this is our culture and heritage? *chuckles*
Tabitha 1:04:47
Yep.
Simone 1:04:47
Yeah!
Tabitha 1:04:48
Can we put up statues?
Daniel 1:04:50
Well. *laughter* I would like to. Recent history tells us that’s a trickier question than perhaps achieved. *everyone continues laughing*
Tabitha 1:04:58
If you hear about Satanists in the news, these days, it’s almost always because of the Satanic Temple, a new Satanist religion founded in 2012, which reveals the old Romantic model of Satan as a patron of humanism and enlightenment. In recent years, even more experimental new Satanist groups have appeared around the world. I like the idea of, like, the experimental group, but it’s like experimental like music, so they’re, like, *silly sounds, kind of like tongue-wagging, devolves into chuckling*
Simone 1:05:23
Can we just have, like, John Cage Satanists running around *Tabitha starts laughing* silently?
Tabitha 1:05:28
*laughing* Yes. Exactly.
Simone 1:05:31
Alright, so, that’s a kind of an overview of the development of Satanism as a religion and some of the major players within it.
Daniel 1:05:40
Again, yeah, that’s kind of the loosest possible timeline of how we get from the character of Satan to the modern idea of Satanism, but it still doesn’t really tell you a lot and we’ll get into more details in a bit, but when they keep running into is, it’s hard. It’s hard-
Simone 1:05:55
Yeah.
Daniel 1:05:55
-to pin things down in very specific ways. *chuckles*
Simone 1:05:58
Okay, and now we’ve got some really great quotes and passages, here, from experts of varying areas. *Tabitha chuckles* All about different perspectives on Satanism and what Satanists believe. So, let’s jump right in.
Daniel 1:06:14
Here we’ve got a very brief selection from the 2016 book, The Invention of Satanism, by Dyrendal, Lewis, and Peterson. “Parallel to New Age, Satanism is not a single movement with a single voice of doctrine, but a milieu with a multiplicity of debating voices. What they may have in common may be as much the intentional act of declaring oneself a Satanist as any specific point of view. Satanism comprises imminent, materialistic, as well as transcendental idealistic views of the self, and the atheistic and theistic views of Satan. Satan is a symbol of contention: All groups and individuals relate to the finger of Satan, but they do so in different ways. He is associated with sex, pride, nonconformity, rebellion, and individualism. Satanism is understood primarily as post-Christian.” So, I liked this- this quote is actually cobbled together from a couple of different places in the same couple of pages, here, but they’re a couple things that I took away from this one. I liked the comparison of the term New Age-
Simone 1:07:07
Yeah. Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:07:07
-a term that has no specific definition, but everyone knows what it means. *chuckles*
Simone 1:07:11
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel 1:07:13
That was a really, really handy analogy when I first read this book. And, this idea that everyone relates to Satan; *chuckling* no one really agrees with what that means, but that is, maybe the only thing we all have in common. *Tabitha laughs* That, and maybe a certain aesthetic. Like, we all relate to symbols like Baphomet and the pentagram, although, again, in very different ways. And I found this idea of Satanism as post-Christian- this is something that, I think, was Peterson who showed up in the documentary, Hail Satan, talking about that- Satanism is not anti-Christian. Satanism frames itself as post-Christian; maybe in the same way that Christianity is post-Jewish. And Judaism itself emerged from Canaanite culture, way back in a period of history that’s a little bit murkier. And so, those ideas really kind of fired my imagination. I didn’t really like this book all that much, to be honest. I found it a little dry for me, but, even here, I think it’s, like, yes, this is actually a really, really useful, objective perspective on these themes that I was grasping for and finally found here.
Tabitha 1:08:10
I actually especially like the idea that he posts about, just- not, nobody fucking agrees, because *Simone laughs* man, is that true! Nobody fucking agrees! It’s just, we’re all, like, we all say we’re Satanists, so we’re all in it together, in a sort of a way. *laughs*
Daniel 1:08:26
But here’s my question for, for everybody else at the table is: Is this really unique? For example, if we look at the different Christian denominations, Catholics and Mormons both claim to be Christian, but man, they have *wildly* different ideas about what that means. Is Satanism really more diverse and varied than the other religious traditions? Or do those other religions just enjoy the privilege of appearing to be more consistent than they actually are? What do we think?
Simone 1:08:51
Well, one of the things I was getting into my little Twitter beef about is, I think that if you relate to the character of Satan, you are a Satanist. Like, if that is the archetype, or myth, that you feel most closely represents, or organizes, your beliefs, then I think it’s okay to call yourself a Satanist. Whether you’re a theistic Satanist, or an atheistic Satanist, whether your Church of Satan, TST, none of the above, so that does imply, like, a community of Satanists, because we all have that one thing that we agree on, but I agree *laughs* that we could take such different perspectives. And the part of the, the back and forth I was having was, what would we call ourselves? You know? We’ve gotten into this topic before of quote, unquote, why Satan? But it seems so clear, to me, that if you have chosen Satan, for whatever your reasons are, that makes you a Satanist, and I think that the other religions have that privilege of, you know, longevity, of being so mainstream for so long, so dominant for so long, that, you know, we, kind of, take for granted that these are all people who, in one way or another, follow Christ, and so they get to call themselves Christians, but they can be so wildly different, but no one seems to stop and argue with you that one group or another is not Christian, *laughs* except for other Christians, perhaps. Because I know some, some people think that, you know, Catholics are their own forms of, you know, idolaters or, or magic-users, or whatever, but yeah. So, I think that’s really interesting. And then, I, on the one hand, I like the idea of Satanism as being post-Christian, because it’s, kind of, if you look at it in the way that Daniel has sort of positioned it, each one is sort of a step progressing from the previous. However, I think that Satanism pulls from a lot of stuff that’s pre-Christian anyway. We’ve talked about this before; in terms of, like, how the Devil looks and how that’s borrowed from pagan religions and, you know, stuff that’s got its roots in ancient, you know, Jewish culture, so while I think it’s post-Christian almost, like, on a timeline kind of way, I don’t want that to be misleading into thinking that it’s solely a reaction to Christianity. Because there’s more to it than that.
Tabitha 1:11:17
Yeah. I think the only real *chuckles* difference, to be honest with you, is time.
Simone 1:11:22
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:11:22
You know, Christians have been around for a lot longer, they have a lot more time to get beefs with each other, for dissonance, for splintering, all of that stuff, and I-
Simone 1:11:31
For just simple understanding.
Tabitha 1:11:33
Yeah.
Simone 1:11:33
Like, I think, you say, ‘oh, Jesus Christ,’ I think that people around the world have an understanding of what that is.
Tabitha 1:11:39
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:11:39
But given the fact we’ve just had to define who Satan is, he, Satan doesn’t have that privilege.
Tabitha 1:11:45
Right.
Daniel 1:11:46
I agree with what Simone is saying, is the fact that Satanism certainly is not just a response to Christianity- sometimes people will try to argue Satan is a Christian character, and I say, ‘weird, he’s got a Jewish name, then, isn’t it?’ *Tabitha chuckles* Satan is a much more complicated character than any one religious tradition, or even irreligious tradition, but one thing I will say is the fact that maybe the most common story of how people become Satanists is that they were sort of jilted out-
Tabitha 1:12:11
Sure.
Daniel 1:12:11
-of another religious tradition, usually a Christian one-
Tabitha 1:12:14
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:12:14
Yeah.
Daniel 1:12:14
-found Satanism, at least initially attractive, because of that. We are unusual-
Simone 1:12:18
Yeah.
Daniel 1:12:18
-in that, *chuckles* that is not our story, but it’s far more common to hear that. So, for example, when I talk about defying the arbitrary authority, represented by God, when I say God, I’m usually not just thinking about the Christian religious deity of God. I’m also thinking about things like white supremacy, misogyny, capitalism.
Simone 1:12:38
Mmhmm. Yep.
Daniel 1:12:38
All of these things that are tied up in the religious and cultural traditions that we associate with people’s idea of God and Jesus, and so that, even that word becomes much bigger, and broader, and scarier. *laugher* Just what you learn in church. So, these ideas are not nearly as simple as we might like to assume, in the moments when we are inclined to be glib about them. *chuckles*
Simone 1:12:38
Yeah, Satan and God, neither of whom exist; God is more than just the gray beard cloud daddy and Satan is more than just the red-skinned, horned pitchfork dude. But they’re both made up. *Tabitha laughs* So.
Tabitha 1:13:17
Yep.
Simone 1:13:18
Okay, so this next passage, we’ve already, kind of, made a reference to it; this is from Children of Lucifer by Ruben Van Luijk, from 2016. “Despite the spontaneous images that it conjures, defining Satanism is no straightforward endeavor.” Boy Howdy. *laughs*
Tabitha 1:13:35
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:13:35
“I define Satanism as the intentional, religiously motivated veneration of Satan. The veneration must have a religious character, but as of yet scholars have not agreed upon a proper definition of religion. Historian EB Taylor defined religion as belief in supernatural beings, but supernatural is itself a term not easy to define. Other schools sought to define religion by stressing social or ritual parameters, but what makes a Satanist a Satanist is not performance of ritual actions but their relationship to Satan. Nor can I agree with those who deem the social dimension an essential part of religion: An individual alone who is praying, conducting a ritual, or giving expression in words or art is still practicing a religion.” Yeah, that’s, that’s one of those things- if we can’t decide upon, like, you know, Satanists don’t have one single doctrine. Satan is not one single character, as perceived by the people practicing. So, what, what makes the religion? We don’t believe in the supernatural. There’s, there’s one. But atheistic religions exist and have existed before Satanism. Do we all do the same ritual? Do we all have the same events? Well, no. Do we all necessarily come together in communities? Again, no. Sometimes by, you know, by design. Like, someone wants to practice on a solitary basis; that’s their choice, and some people don’t have the opportunity to meet other, you know, Satanists in their, their local area, so none of those things is the through-line.
Daniel 1:15:09
Even more than that, you know, sometimes a question you’ll run into is this idea that is Satanism or religion? The answer is yes, but that then runs immediately into the roadblock of, how do you define religion? The answer is nobody does, actually. I have, I have, I have tried to find a workable, agreed upon, scholarly definition of what religion is and it just doesn’t exist. *Simone laughs* You can definitely articulate one that makes sense to you, but you will find that you end up leaving out-
Simone 1:15:35
Yep.
Daniel 1:15:35
-people that feels weird to exclude.
Tabitha 1:15:39
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:15:39
And I think, maybe, more than anything, the Joe Laycock book Speak of the Devil, which we’ll get to in a little bit, made a very interesting point that I’ve never heard anybody else raise. They point out that the Church of Satan is an atheistic religion, and yet nobody ever questioned that it was a religion. Only when the Satanic Temple started making news and getting into court- arguments with elected officials, public officials, did the question of, is atheistic Satanism or religion come up, and he argues that’s because the Satanic Temple was challenging assumptions about religion in the way that other religious groups vaguely similar, thematically similar groups before had not done. And so, really, religion seems to be a set of assumptions. Like Van Luijk, here, says, ‘when we say Satanism, it conjures up immediate images.’ Everyone thinks of very, very similar ideas, and concepts, and aesthetics when we say that word, but if we asked to articulate what they mean, it’s almost impossible to do. Maybe religion is just the assumptions that we make about each other’s beliefs and our own. Maybe that is all there is to it.
Tabitha 1:16:36
Or just, I want it. *laughs* What, what are, Why are you a Satanist? Because I want to! *laughs*
Simone 1:16:42
You know, I, I always try and think about how Satanism looks to outsiders, to try and understand, you know, where they’re coming from. I don’t want to be one of those people who gets into, into Satanism so deeply that I can’t see the outside perspective-
Tabitha 1:16:56
*laughing* How you could not be a Satanist?
Simone 1:16:58
Well, and see, sometimes we do ridiculous shit. It’s fine. I’m cool with ridiculous shit, but I can *see* how it’s ridiculous to other people.
Tabitha 1:17:05
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:17:06
So, in thinking, trying to put myself into the shoes of an outsider. If I am an outsider, mainstream Christian person, and I see Anton LeVey on a talk show, you know, in his, you know, crazy getups and see still images of him conducting ritual, I think, ‘well, maybe he’s just like a dark Catholic,’ or something, because it still looks, you know- you’ve got the ritual, got the trappings, got the costumes. And then, when the Satanic Temple started to, was formed, and started to make the news, I feel like it was harder to understand because they weren’t presenting themselves, like, ritual first? Costume first?
Tabitha 1:17:51
Or anti-Christian, particularly.
Simone 1:17:53
Well, they were, they were, like, you know, political first-
Tabitha 1:17:56
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:17:56
-which people still separate that in their, in their minds. That doesn’t seem like religion to them. Now, I think it is religion. I think that politics manifests people’s beliefs that include their religious beliefs, so, like, I get it. But I can *see,* I can see how, to an outsider, you see the Satanic Temple, you know, rising in profile and you’re, like, ‘I can’t just assume that these are dark Catholics because they’re, you know, in court with somebody-
Tabitha 1:18:25
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:18:25
-instead of doing a ritual on a naked lady altar.’
Tabitha 1:18:28
Up next, we have from the Lure of the Sinister, Gareth Medway, 2001. “One thing all Satanists have in common is that they are rebels against arbitrary authority. For this reason, they do not take kindly to authorities within Satanism itself.” *laughter*
Simone 1:18:45
*laughing* I mean, it’s herding cats over here.
Tabitha 1:18:49
*flatly* Cough. “People have such anarchic frame of mind do not sit easily with organization, within organizations, and Satanic orders are generally small. They are not obviously morally worse than any, anyone else: Satanism usually pursues ego gratification and personal power, but, but these are the common values of contemporary society.”
Simone 1:19:13
Interesting. I mean, I don’t, I don’t disagree. Because we’ve seen, you know, sects of Satanism splitting off from each other and people having little snipes and gripes with each other. A lot of the Satanists I know are very independently minded, and strong-willed, and have very clear feelings on what they think is right, or wrong, or how things should be run. However, it is- so, so Satanic Bay Area is a relatively small group because we are very specifically geographically located in the San Francisco Bay Area, and we have members who are into Satanism of all stripes and have chosen to to be with us, so we’ve got a pretty good group going, but we have no interest in expanding beyond that and I feel that the larger an organization gets, just the more difficult it is to run. You know, we see this all the time, not just in Satanism, and so, you know, the, the idea in this passage that people do not sit easily within organizations and Satanic orders are generally small, is, like, true and not true? Because, you know, the Satanic Temple is, has grown, as we’ve said, over the last couple of years. They’ve got chapters all across the country and around the world, but then again, the chapters themselves, I haven’t seen any that are terribly large. I think, I think it-
Tabitha 1:20:45
Well, that could be on purpose, too. Like, some of these chapters don’t, you know, you never hear anything about them because they’d like to, you know, they don’t want to talk about what they’re doing, which is fair. *Simone laughs*
Simone 1:20:53
Well, also, it’s just, you know, but, at the same time, people have chosen to join a TST group, for example, as opposed to starting their own or joining an individual group, so I can’t say that I fully agree with this passage. It’s, it’s both true and not true. *laughs*
Daniel 1:21:12
The thing that I respond to, when I read this the first time, is what he mentions, here, that this idea that ego gratification is actually a contemporary value, it is not a rejection of contemporary values. That, that was a Gordian Knot moment for me. *Simone chuckles* I said, ‘yes, he is absolutely right.’ When we hear these ideas, these, kind of, like, 20th century, Ayn Rand-tinged ideas-
Simone 1:21:32
Yeah. Yep.
Daniel 1:21:32
-of Satanists talking about rational self-interest. I’m like, that’s not rebelliousness; that’s what society is feeding us all the time. *Tabitha and Simone both mmhmm* But, you see, the difference is just that- it really does come down to- it becomes perilously subjective. Case of point, I approach issues like trans rights and gender queerness as a profoundly Satanic topic, theme, and element because I perceive those people as not only fighting for their own individual selfhood, but also challenging these ancient entrenched, really decrepit and often abusive and toxic, institutions. That, to me, is the story of Satan: rejecting this tradition that has been handed down to us in favor of something that is better for us. On the other hand, chuds see, see trans rights as, as a horrible conspiracy being forced on them by Disney, and China, and Communism. And of course, the difference between that is that I am right, and they are delusional. *Simone and Tabitha laugh* But you’ll never convince them of that- this idea, we all say, ‘yes, we are all for, about the individual; we all want to reject authoritarianism.’ But then, we go completely inverse directions with that, and so, I find that I don’t know what the cure is for this, as I said, perilous, perilous subjective, subjectivity. Maybe there isn’t one; maybe there shouldn’t be one. But it does mean it makes it very, very hard for us to really, I feel, pin this down as a truly Satanic value, or as a value at all, if it becomes that slippery and indistinct.
Simone 1:22:59
Yeah, I’m just trying to think of, like, you know, what if I met some white nationalists separatists who’s living out in the, you know, the backwoods of Montana somewhere, and we were sitting in a bar, I’m like, ‘yeah, I arbitrary authority, I push back against that all the time,’ and they’re like, ‘Yeah! Me too!’ And I’m like, ‘I think that trans people are people who should have rights,’ and they’re like, ‘No!’ And I’m like, ‘I thought we were on the same page!’
Tabitha 1:23:25
*laughs* No!
Simone 1:23:26
So it’s, yeah, it’s can go so wildly different.
Daniel 1:23:31
Here, I guess, is maybe all I have to say, ultimately, about this is that all of us conform, sometimes.
Simone 1:23:37
Yeah.
Daniel 1:23:37
And that is actually normal, and expected, and would get pretty weird if we never did. At the same time, all of us want to preserve our own privilege to be ourselves. The tension between those two compulsions is, I guess, the role that we be- ends up being the role that we play in society. And so, we have to accept and be honest about that before we start to decide ideas, like, you know, what does rebelliousness mean to us, really?
Simone 1:24:05
I just- the idea that sometimes you do want to conform. Yes. I see, I see someone a friend who has, you know, like, a cool job or has just watched an interesting movie, and so I, by exposure to them, now I’m interested in that thing, too and maybe there is a feeling of wanting to join them in something that we can then have in common and talk about or whatever. The idea of trying to rebel against everything and do everything different than every other person on this planet is so exhausting. *chuckles* I mean, we all know people who are just such contrarians-
Tabitha 1:24:42
Yeah.
Simone 1:24:42
-and that they are never happy. They always hate everything and it’s *exhausting.*
Tabitha 1:24:47
It is. And it must be exhausting for them, too.
Simone 1:24:50
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:24:50
Like, how can you- like, going through life hating, literally, everything that you come across, and- or *finding* a reason to hate everything you come across.
Simone 1:24:57
Or, or you liked something at first, and now you don’t like it because somebody else does.
Tabitha 1:25:02
Right.
Simone 1:25:02
So tiresome. Okay, so this next one, we are revisiting Satanic Feminism by Per Faxneld, 2017. “Myth becomes a battleground for political values. Many scholars remark on the conservative quality of myth, saying that its purpose is to strengthen tradition and endow it with greater prestige. Counter-myth serves the opposite function of ‘ordinary myth,’ subverting instead of supporting the dominant discourse on how the social order should be organized. Undermining hegemonic narratives is never an end unto itself: Counter-myth is always intended to cause some shift in power structures. Of course, myth itself can have a liberating, radical effect. It is impossible to reduce religion or myth to just a tool of the ruling class.”
Daniel 1:25:52
So this one gets a little bit academic for us, I think, but the point is, some people frame Satanism as a counter-myth, that we are taking elements of this predominant narrative and using it to undermine the institutions and assumptions based on it. Other people counter and they say, ‘no, really, that’s what all myth is.’ All myth starts off as counter-myth-
Simone 1:26:11
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:26:12
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:26:12
-or has elements of it in that- kind of, like, just like, what I was saying, is that we cannot easily divide the world into these two categories like this, as much as it would be nice and convenient to. What do you think, Simone?
Simone 1:26:25
It makes me think of- one of the things I like [about] Satanism is one of the things I like about a lot of the, the films, and books, and TV shows that I like: I like the idea of seeing the main narrative, you know, the, the main myth, and seeing who we accept as the heroes, who we are told are the heroes, and then who we are told are the villains. And then I like to try and think about things from the perspective of that villain, so in, you know, the larger, you know, religious, you know, world thinking, what if Satan was right? What if Satan is the, you know, actually the hero and God is the villain? And it just kind of trickles down to, you know, what if Hans Gruber was actually, kind of, like, an Ocean’s 11 type movie and then he was the hero for stealing all that money from the terrible Nakatomi Corporation. Or, Hannibal Lecter? *pauses, pops tongue* Still can’t-
Tabitha 1:27:17
Well, yeahhhh. *laughs*
Simone 1:27:18
Still can’t justify eating people. Still can’t justify eating people, but shows from, you know, shows, books, movies, from his perspective is, at least, more interesting than a lot of, you know, the, kind of, flat heroes that were presented with. So, yeah, I just like thinking about the, the narrative, and how it’s presented to you, and how you’re *supposed* to view it versus what if you just flipped it and looked at it from the other way?
Tabitha 1:27:45
Or even took it and looked at it from your own perspective, so instead of, like, reading it, or, like, it, pretty, pretty obviously stating some kind of moral or something, we say, ‘well, what if, how do, how do I apply it?’ Like, if this was me? Or, you know, if this was my myth. Like, what, what do I think actually was happening here? Or if I put myself in the shoes of anybody in this, even a bystander, like, what do I think would be going on?
Simone 1:28:08
*chuckling* I kind of think that Disney is starting- Fuck Disney! -is starting to do this, though, because they have that Cruella movie where it’s, like, *in a stupid voice* ‘what a Cruella was really the hero and it turns out-‘
Tabitha 1:28:20
Well, it’s just the Joker… *chuckles*
Simone 1:28:21
It’s just stupid- that, I mean, sorry. I’m sorry Cruella’s mom was murdered by Dalmatians and now she wants to skin puppies; I still am not on her side.
Tabitha 1:28:29
Yeahhh, I really think that Cruella might not have been the best choice. I’m not, I don’t want to get into this for a long, long period, but she was so fucking evil. *Simone makes a sound of agreement* How about Ursula?
Simone 1:28:41
Ah, Ursula!
Tabitha 1:28:42
We don’t know *anything* about her, really. That, I think, is, would make a much, much better treatment than Cruella, who is so obviously evil- I mean, she wants to skin puppies-
Simone 1:28:51
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:28:51
Like, how, how much worse can you get?!
Simone 1:28:53
I think, I think the reason that, that Disney and other studios are, kind of, going in that direction, though, is to continue to make use out of intellectual property that they already own.
Tabitha 1:29:04
Yes.
Simone 1:29:04
As opposed to branching out with original stories, so while you might think that I’m into this, you know, reversal, this hero to villain reversal, it’s still, I attribute that to not wanting to pay *chuckles* new writers for stories.
Tabitha 1:29:21
*quietly* Yeahh.
Simone 1:29:21
So, not on board with that kind.
Daniel 1:29:24
You know, my perspective is I don’t care if Satan is good, or evil, or right, or wrong because he’s a fictional character and his actions don’t have moral consequences. I care that Satan is a character whom I can relate to. Satan is a human-seeming and humanistic character-
Simone 1:29:40
Mmhmm. Yep.
Daniel 1:29:40
-who is depicted as being profoundly like us. He has our same flaws. He has our same struggles. He is fallible. The Satan myth, fundamentally, is a story about somebody who has something, as- *tries* to do something very, very difficult and very profoundly important and *fails* on a level that is so catastrophic you can’t even imagine what it must be like, and then must continue going on. That, to me, is incredibly engaging. The idea of traditional, monotheistic gods as the, sort of, distant, remote, infallible, perfect characters-
Daniel 1:30:12
Yeah. Yep.
Daniel 1:30:12
-I was reading Jeffrey Burton Russell’s book Lucifer: The devil in the Middle Ages, and he was summarizing the medieval concept of God, saying ‘God is completely other. God is completely outside our perception.’ I thought, ‘how am I supposed to respond to that?’ The idea- how am I supposed to relate to that? Not only-
Simone 1:30:27
God is an alien.
Tabitha 1:30:27
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:30:28
Yeah! It’s not only inhuman, it’s dehumanizing. I would have to be *less* of a person to be more like that. That’s horrifying.
Tabitha 1:30:35
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:30:36
Satan, on the other hand, you know, depending on the story, and depending on the part of the story, is he right? Sometimes. Other times, maybe not, but Satan is *always* somebody whom I can understand, and is compelling, and is, is interesting to me on a level that feels profoundly empathetic, and that is why I love that character. I’m also deeply suspicious of the roots of this myth. Of this Iron Age idea that the ultimate source of good and the world is this all-powerful, divine, patriarchal king figure, and that the root of all evil is the first person to ever try to change things. Boy, that feels awfully convenient-
Tabitha 1:31:14
Hmmm?
Simone 1:31:14
Yeah.
Daniel 1:31:14
-for certain kinds of people, doesn’t it?
Simone 1:31:16
Yep.
Tabitha 1:31:16
Hmmm?
Daniel 1:31:18
So yeah, that’s where, that’s, that’s the, kind of- I guess, maybe, if we’re gonna continue with the, with the, with the horrifying Disney analogies, *Simone chuckles* it would be, like, watching Loki, you know? What makes Loki an intriguing character in that show? It’s not that he’s good, because he’s not, or at least he is sometimes, but it’s that they go out of their way to try to make him somebody who is relatable, somebody whom you can understand why he is doing these things, even if these things are not necessarily *chuckling* always the best thing to do. Also, there’s a scene where they laser his clothes off, and I suspect that’s what Simone is imagining, as I’m looking at the dreamy expression on her face right now. *Tabitha giggles*
Simone 1:31:48
You know, I would totally let Loki explain to me why he does the things that he does. Slowly. With a lot of eye contact. *giggling* Anyway.
Daniel 1:32:00
We should move on.
Tabitha 1:32:01
Oh my goodness.
Daniel 1:32:02
And now we’re going to hear from a perspective we’ve actually never had on this show before. This is a selection from the essay, Satanism: The Feared Religion by Peter Gilmore. Interesting to note that Peter Gilmore is these days the head of the Church of Satan, but he was not at the time that he published this in the early 1990s. At the time, old Anton was still with us. Gilmore says, “Let us look at contemporary Satanism for what it really is: a brutal religion of elitism and social Darwinism that seeks to reestablish the reign of the able-” By the way, my cohosts should feel free to react in real-time.
Simone 1:32:35
Oooooooh.
Tabitha 1:32:35
Woof.
Daniel 1:32:36
“-and wholesale rejection of egalitarianism as a myth that has crippled the advancement of the human species.”
Tabitha 1:32:40
Oh, jeez.
Simone 1:32:41
Yikes.
Daniel 1:32:41
“The Satanic code of behavior is based on human nature as it is and thus comes naturally to most people who have not been deeply indoctrinated. *Tabitha scoffs* The reality behind Satan is simply the dark evolutionary force that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things. *Tabitha tries to stifle a chuckle* Satanism encourages a return to more ‘traditional’ values *Tabitha groans* in art and literature *Tabitha groans again* such as mastery of technique and emotional communication, of form and function, design and execution. All are eagerly sought. Satanists find a wealth of material in Western culture to be treasured for the pinnacle of human achievements…and not to be buried under the swill of multiculturalist attempts to displace them.” Yes.
Tabitha 1:33:17
Are we sure this isn’t PragerU? *laughter* Because I meannnn, it sure sounds like it. *chuckles*
Simone 1:33:23
Just. Wow. Just,’ Satanism encourages a return to more traditional values and, dot ta ta, and a mastery of technique and emotional communication.’ I’mmmm not going to, you know, I’m sorry, *Tabitha chuckles* I just can’t get there with Peter Gilmore and even old, stinky Tony being ‘masters of emotional communication.’ *Tabitha, as we call it in our house, troll laughs*
Daniel 1:33:48
“The principle of this-” I’m quoting again, by the way, *laughter* in case this is not clear. “The principle of the survival of the strong *Tabby noises* is advocated on all levels of society.”
Tabitha 1:33:48
Boo.
Daniel 1:33:49
“Any [assistance] on all levels will be on a quid pro quo basis. There will be a concomitant reduction in the world’s population as the weak are allowed to experience the consequences of social Darwinism-“
Tabitha 1:34:05
Jee- Fuck you, man! Grr!
Daniel 1:34:08
“Thus has nature always acted to cleanse and strengthen her children. This doctrine would be a complete cessation of the welfare system, an end to ‘no-strings attached’ foreign aid and new programs to award and encourage gifted individuals. Meritocracy will replace the practices of- practice of injustices such as ‘affirmative action’ and other programs designed to punish the able and reward the undeserving. Satanists also seek to enhance the laws of nature by concentrating on fostering the practice of eugenics. This is not some exotic doctrine hatched in the brains of Third Reich medical madmen.”
Tabitha 1:34:39
Yes, it is.
Daniel 1:34:40
It is the practice of encouraging people of talent and ability to reproduce, to enrich the gene pool from which our species can grow. We will be pleased to see the institution of an elite police force, an American Schutzstaffel as it were-“
Simone 1:34:51
Nooooooooo!
Tabitha 1:34:53
Pump the fucking breaks, Peter! [seriously, go fuck yourself, peter!]
Daniel 1:34:55
I find it very interesting that when the Church of Satan reprints this essay today, they omit the SS reference, here.
Tabitha 1:35:01
Ooh!
Simone 1:35:01
I wonder why?
Tabitha 1:35:02
Hmm.
Daniel 1:35:02
I am *fascinated* both by the fact that it was included in the first place and that it was later removed. *chuckling* “-of men and women in peak physical and mental condition, trained in advanced techniques of crime-fighting who would be truly equipped to handle the vermin that make so many of our cities little more than concrete jungles.” Hey, guys, I’ve got a question. Is being a Satanist just also being a Breitbart editor?
Simone 1:35:22
*vomit noises*
Tabitha 1:35:23
*groaning* Oooh, wow.
Simone 1:35:24
Okay, so in our, one of our pre- most recent, previous episodes about Satanism and people living with disability, I said- I was, like, didn’t Anton say something about eugenics? And I couldn’t quite remember.
Daniel 1:35:42
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:35:42
*laughing* It is because I had read this essay!
Daniel 1:35:44
Ooh!
Tabitha 1:35:44
Mmm.
Simone 1:35:45
And that’s what I was pulling from but I was misremembering that it was not Anton himself. It was Gilmore. Kind of don’t care. Except there’s a diff, but-
Daniel 1:35:57
Well, LeVey also loved to talk about eugenics.
Simone 1:35:58
Yeah. So I mean, this is what I was getting at. Like, this whole, ‘the, the strong will survive. We need to let the weak, you know, die off and practice eugenics and blah-‘ you know, calling other people vermin. This is the shit that really, really turned me off of Church of Satan.
Tabitha 1:36:17
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:36:17
Now, hang on. Because we’ll get emails. We should point out: first of all, this quotation that I’ve singled out here runs the whole gamut of the essay. I just picked out the juiciest bits here; I left out a lot of stuff. Not that any of it, like, undermines any of what I just quoted. *Simone chuckles* But I should point out that, in fairness, when they talk about the ‘weak and the unable,’ they are not necessarily talking in ablest or racist terms- although they do use ablest and racist terms. Always they try to couch this as the weak as being stupid and incompetent. Now, of course, that is always sort of a moving target about-
Simone 1:36:51
Yeahh.
Daniel 1:36:52
And also, again, not really a new or daring idea. That’s just-
Simone 1:36:55
And also, who defines these things, and blah, blah, blah.
Tabitha 1:36:57
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:36:57
This is just ditching Nazi eugenics and going back to Victorian eugenics, which is, you know, not, not…
Tabitha 1:37:03
Any better. *chuckling*
Daniel 1:37:05
I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not really a deep well, that they’re trying to draw out of, here. But you know what? Weirdly enough, I like this essay, and the reason why I like this essay is not the things that it says, but the fact that, here, is where they come out and say it.
Simone 1:37:18
Yeah.
Daniel 1:37:18
It’s actually very, very hard to find a single source that you can pin down to find, what does this institution believe? In real practical terms. You would have to read *chuckling* many, many books *Simone chuckles* by their founder to get all this stuff, especially towards the end of his life, he started to lean pretty hard into the Alex Jones eenis of *chuckles*
Simone 1:37:39
Of it all? *chuckles*
Daniel 1:37:39
Yeah, of it all. Here, it’s, like, it’s all in one place. It’s all in one, long, meandering, unedited, place, but, nevertheless, it is all there, and so I find it a very, very helpful reference. And I bring this up, because, you can probably tell by our editorial insertions, we do not believe this. Actually, I think a lot of people who even say they follow the Church of Satan don’t believe this.
Simone 1:38:01
Yeah.
Daniel 1:38:01
But nevertheless, these are the beliefs of the longest-lasting Satanist institution in the world, and that has had profound effects on the formation of Satanist subcultures around the world, particularly in the 20th century.
Simone 1:38:13
Hell, I don’t think people in the Church of Satan, some of them, know that this essay exists. Because, remember, when we did Satan Speaks, people did not believe us that that was Anton LeVey’s writings and I’m, like, ‘you are in Church of Satan, and A. you don’t know that this book exists and B. you’re, like, trying to fight with us about whether or not these quotes are real.’
Tabitha 1:38:35
Mmm.
Simone 1:38:36
On Facebook? And-
Daniel 1:38:37
There does seem to be questionable literacy among Anton’s modern, uh-
Simone 1:38:40
Yeah.
Daniel 1:38:41
Fan Club. *chuckles*
Tabitha 1:38:42
Also, does Peter get to decide who, who is the best, you know, person who, who the eugenics will favor, or not? Like, is he this deciding factor of *Simone laughs* who are strong, who is smart? Like, why, why does he get to decide? Why does anyone get to decide who lives and dies?
Daniel 1:39:01
See, we talked about this back on the Satan Speaks episode; here is the problem. That’s always the problem with these sorts of standards: is the fact that there is no way to keep your biases from poisoning the rubric that you want to apply to the rest of society. Here, when he’s saying things, like, is like, ‘Oh, well, it’ll just be we’ll, we’ll just make things, no-strings-attached and hands-off, and the people who don’t make it will be the people who were too weak to get ahead,’ but this thing- the thing I find fascinating in here is where he goes on this, sort of, Limbaugh-an rant about ‘we need to stop foreign aid!’ And, this is an incredibly naive position, that he seems to think that we do foreign aid because we feel compassionate and because, like, every state department from Carter through Trump were just a bunch of bleeding hearts. No, we do it so that those countries will implement policy that we want, or so that when they do things we don’t like we can take away that air or threaten to take it away to get them on board with us! For somebody who is such a profound cynic, *Simone laughs* he should know how this works! This is a really weird, naive, sheltered perspective on international policy; I find that *so* telling it’s such a weird way. Pete is a weird dude.
Tabitha 1:40:04
Do you- so, do you think that he’s going to favorite people with weird eyebrows?
Daniel 1:40:09
You’re thinking of Aquino.
Tabitha 1:40:12
Ah, fuck!
Daniel 1:40:12
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:40:13
Do you think that he thinks Aquino is the perfect man? The Ubermensch? *laughter* [ok, but upon googling, i kind of love his eyebrows. also, its three in the morning…]
Daniel 1:40:20
Now I strongly suspect that Gilmore didn’t think much of Aquino.
Tabitha 1:40:22
Aw, dammit!
Daniel 1:40:24
You know? Gilmore was, kind of, like- I think he was the replacement for Aquino-
Tabitha 1:40:28
Oh!
Daniel 1:40:28
He was, like, the- *chuckles*
Tabitha 1:40:30
All these churches Satan people look the same. *laughter*
Daniel 1:40:35
He’s got quite a beard, so maybe there’s that? Maybe, maybe it’s the beard-yness that makes him, makes it-
Tabitha 1:40:40
Yeah, only people with beards get to live through-
Simone 1:40:42
With, with remarkable facial hairs.
Tabitha 1:40:45
Yes.
Simone 1:40:45
Of some kind.
Tabitha 1:40:45
Yeah.
Simone 1:40:46
Or another.
Daniel 1:40:46
The other thing that I also observed is that, I feel that when elitists place themselves into so-called elitist organizations, the results are often not what they think they are going to be because um, I dunno, you know… As insensitive as it may sound to say it, many people who endorse this, sort of, authoritarian elitism, will find that they are committing themselves to a slow form of suicide without realizing it.
Tabitha 1:41:12
Mmhmm.
Daniel 1:41:12
That’s all I’ll add there. In any case, thoughts?
Simone 1:41:16
I mean, just, just what you just said, kind of reminds me of all these people who thought that they were preppers, for the end of days, and they stockpiled on all their guns, and their canned foods, and then, the pandemic hit, and they fucking fell apart. Because-
Tabitha 1:41:31
Yep. Absolutely just lost their fucking-
Simone 1:41:32
-it was a different kind of, quote, unquote, end of the world, where you had to be nice, and stay at home, and not fight, you know, marauding bands of zombies.
Tabitha 1:41:42
Right, and you have to be compassionate towards another, other people.
Simone 1:41:45
So, all these people, like, really, really think very highly of themselves, but the second you, you change the scenario from the ideal scenario that they’ve prepared for, you know, they are not prepared for anything. They’re prepared for the one thing they’ve put together in their imagination.
Tabitha 1:42:03
Yeah, and they’re not prepared for that either. To be quite honest with you, I think that if the thing that they expect to happen happened, they, they would fall apart, then, as well.
Simone 1:42:12
Yeah, and so, here, it’s, like, you know, so this kind of Satanism is all about lauding the people who are strong, but what kind of strong? Apparently Gilmore’s definition of strong, but that’s not the only strong that there is, and it’s such a limiting imagination-less perspective when, in reality, we find that the more people we talk to, the more perspectives we get, the more diversity we have of thought, of people, of backgrounds of experience. That’s, that’s the real strength, and that’s, that’s the kind of Satanism that I like: the one that recognizes that.
Daniel 1:42:49
I could go on about this all day-
Simone 1:42:51
Yeah.
Daniel 1:42:51
-like I said, I really love this essay. It’s awful, but I love it because it provides a lot of- it provides very useful services, let’s put it this way. Case in point, I don’t know if anybody else saw this, earlier this year, the Church of Satan made a public statement about, against police brutality. And I think to myself, that’s great, but what happened to the American SS? What happened to the concrete jungles and the vermin in the streets?
Tabitha 1:43:07
Mmhmm.
Simone 1:43:12
The-
Daniel 1:43:12
Maybe, maybe they’ve just changed their perspective in 30 years, which would not be unreasonable, but I’m guessing they would not consider it a change of perspective. They seem to like to- well, I don’t want to get into the, I want to get into speculating about their motives, but it struck me, not only that there was a change, but that nobody acknowledged that it was a change.
Simone 1:43:30
Well, it- they-
Daniel 1:43:31
That’s fascinating to me.
Daniel 1:43:32
They’d have to still be relevant in some way for people to remark upon such a change. *Daniel chuckles*
Tabitha 1:43:37
Ooooh.
Simone 1:43:37
Sorry.
Tabitha 1:43:38
Woof.
Daniel 1:43:39
Anyway.
Tabitha 1:43:39
And we’re gonna round out our discussion with Speak of the Devil, from Joe Laycock, 2020. “The Satanic Temple can be read as another manifestation of what I call appropriating the discourse of evil. They identify as what their culture understands to be evil, then flip the script by arguing that it is Satanists who really believe in justice and compassion, while their opponents promote intolerance and authoritarianism. Identifying evil is always an exercise in power. TST proposes that Satanists and Christians alike should be judged by their actions and values [instead of…] out-group standards. One might think that coexisting with ‘Good Satanists’ would be preferable to ‘Evil Satanists,’ but responses frequently demonstrate the, just the opposite: Christian opponents accuse the Satanic Temple of not being ‘proper Satanists,’ to the extent that their actions are morally defensible. There is a need, it seems, for Satanists to be evil.
Simone 1:44:50
*chuckles* This kind of makes me think of someone I am distantly related to, who is Catholic, and who did not take kindly to my being a Satanist, although it was never confirmed to them, but I was just, like, ‘okay if we want to look at at this according to your own rules, I’m a better Catholic than you are!’
Tabitha 1:45:15
Naah. *chuckles*
Simone 1:45:15
Because somebody got knocked up out of wedlock…
Simone 1:45:19
Wooh.
Simone 1:45:20
And then got divorced.
Tabitha 1:45:21
Oh!
Simone 1:45:22
And I’m like, ‘so, uh, as far as your own rules go, this Satanist here is is less bad of a Catholic than you are.’ *Tabitha chuckles* Always amuses me.
Tabitha 1:45:33
Yeah.
Simone 1:45:34
Not that, not that getting pregnant out of wedlock and getting divorced, in my view, are bad, but in their view-
Tabitha 1:45:41
Right.
Simone 1:45:41
-are bad, so.
Tabitha 1:45:42
Right.
Daniel 1:45:43
Well, that’s the contrast between, you know- we have a humanistic religion and they have an apocalyptic religion. What makes a good Catholic a good Catholic is not necessarily things like charity, *Simone mmhmm’s* and being nice to people, they’re encouraged to do that, but [they’re not] doing that for the sake of those people, or at least they’re not supposed to be, they’re doing it for the sake of God. *Simone mmhmm’s* Thing with being a Catholic is that that they have a personal relationship with Jesus and they have atoned for their sins and when the judgment day comes they’ll be on the right side of things. Their relationships with people are subordinate to that, or, at least, that’s how it’s designed. Whereas, we have a kind of a people-first mentality because, what else is there, really?
Simone 1:46:15
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:46:16
Well, it’s funny because they say it’s, like, a go- first thing, but, really, it’s a, it’s very selfish because it’s, like, ‘oh, if I do these things, it’s it’s for me, it’s so I get to be where I need to be when, in the afterlife.’ It’s not having to do, you know- they don’t do the thing. Not even- I mean, they say it’s for God, but really, it’s just so I, I just want to make sure that I’m safe when, when, you know, the Ragnarok comes or whatever. *laughter* Continuing: “It may surprise some that a community that rejects supernaturalism finds, finds, such meaning in ritual. However, theorists suggest that, in a serious way, ritual creates our reality and identity. There is a demand for Satanic ritual because they lend the weight of a religious community to individuals whose understanding of themselves has been at odds with their religious upbringing. To claim that the power of ritual is supernatural is harmful, but admitting it is an illusion that the community elects to participate in is empowering. In this way, Satanism is like an honest magician, inviting the audience to enjoy the experience of a religion without asking them to compromise their intelligence.”
Simone 1:47:28
That is something that I like and agree with.
Tabitha 1:47:32
Yeah, wholeheartedly.
Simone 1:47:34
You know what’s funny. My dad watched our 100th episode Black Mass.
Tabitha 1:47:38
No, he didn’t!
Simone 1:47:39
He did. And I said, ‘oh, was that weird for you?’ And he said, ‘yes.’ Although, apparently you didn’t watch the whole thing, he just watched the parts that I was in. And I was, like, no, I mean, I get it, and I, kind of, had to do the schpeel with hi, because I haven’t actually had that ‘why we do ritual’ schpeel with him, but just, like, you know, it’s, it’s performance art. It is a community bonding experience. Or, it can just be, like, a personal comfort if you’re doing an individual ritual. And, but yeah, we don’t think we’re summoning anything; we don’t think that the power of prayer is going to solve all of our problems. So, I do like getting to, you know, consciously go in and do this for these benefits that we know without, like Laycock says, without compromising our intelligence.
Tabitha 1:48:31
Mmhmm. And for me, I mean, I mentioned on the show many times, I love the spectacle. I just love-
Simone 1:48:36
It’s just fun!
Tabitha 1:48:37
Yes, it’s so much fun.
Simone 1:48:38
And what’s wrong with that?
Tabitha 1:48:39
It’s, it’s just fun, and I love- and I feel like people are really engaged in it. And- it’s funny because when, like, even when I started going to these things, like, at first, I was, like, ‘oh I feel silly-‘
Simone 1:48:49
Yes.
Tabitha 1:48:49
-but not even- within one of these things, within, you know, 10 to 15 minutes, I felt included, and I felt-
Simone 1:48:57
Mmhmm.
Tabitha 1:48:57
-like I was having a good time, and that it wasn’t silly, or dumb. That it was, you know- Oh, wow! Yeah, this, that this makes me feel fucking great! *laughs*
Simone 1:49:06
It is, it is one of those things that, when you are coming from the atheist side of things, you feel, like, you know, you start with ‘religion is stupid,’ and then you, kind of, maybe open yourself up a little bit more and- but then you go, ‘oh, so ritual is stupid. What’s the point?’ And it can be- that’s the, the hump to, to get over. Whereas, I think, people coming in from, you know, other religions, they understand the ritual. It’s just, like, they, you know, need to come to grips with the atheistic part or with the, you know, the S-word part. I mean, I think it is known that ritual has benefits, and so, there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging those benefits to your, you know, personal mental health, and emotional well-being, and your bonding with your community. Those are good things, kind of across the board, but it’s an even better thing when it’s not layered over something that is toxic and destructive.
Tabitha 1:50:05
Mmhmm. Or just obviously not real.
Simone 1:50:07
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:50:07
And that people have to grapple with real-life and this supernatural thing that they probably don’t actually believe in. Like, and of course, I’m not talking about all Christians or anything, but you know that there’s a subset of these people that are, like, constantly grappling with the fact that they actually probably don’t believe in this-
Simone 1:50:25
Yeah.
Tabitha 1:50:25
-but they are indoctrinated or they have family that they’re like, ‘well, I can’t leave,’ and, you know, having to sit through that, that must be really difficult.
Daniel 1:50:34
There’s even a sociological term for that: Functional Atheist; somebody who is a part of a supernaturalist religion, but is, in terms of their actual convictions, an atheist.
Tabitha 1:50:44
Mmm.
Daniel 1:50:44
And yeah, that can be incredibly difficult. I’m told. *chuckling* Um, I wouldn’t know.
Tabitha 1:50:48
*chuckling* Yeah. I’m very fortunate that I don’t know what that’s like.
Daniel 1:50:52
This is a conflict I see played out on social media over and over again, over the last five years, people are attracted to a group, like the Satanic Temple, or to us- we attract very common- we have a very common appeal. Because, they-
Tabitha 1:51:05
Oh, a Black Mass Appeal? *Simone laughs*
Daniel 1:51:06
Yes.
Tabitha 1:51:06
Eeeeehhhhhhhhhhh!
Simone 1:51:08
She said the name of the show!
Daniel 1:51:11
-because they perceive, based on news coverage, that is a political stunt-
Simone 1:51:15
Yeah.
Daniel 1:51:15
-and that intrigues them, but then they become confused when they encounter additional religious trappings, like ritual events. Now, I want to make it clear, some Satanists don’t dig that kind of thing, and that is fine. That is their right. But, I strongly suspect that the people who do participate in practices like ritual, have an easier time integrating into their Satanic communities and end up with more deeply-entrenched Satanic identities and values. I haven’t studied that; I just really think that that is true. Here’s the catch. Ritual is just the practical application of myth; they work exactly the same way. Just like we don’t think our myths are literally true, but they still have value for us. We don’t think that our rituals are magical, but they still perform the same functions as pretty much every other religion. When a priest is standing at the front of the church and giving his sermon, he’s not talking to God because, spoiler, *Simone laughs* God is not there.
Tabitha 1:52:12
*sarcastic fake surprise* Whaaaat?!
Daniel 1:52:13
He is talking to himself, and to the people in the room, *Simone chuckles* and their responses are the point! He may not acknowledge that that’s the point, but that is the real, tangible value of that ritual interaction. It’s just like the same thing for us. The only difference is, we know what’s what. We are very, very honest and straightforward about what is the nature of this, and who is really benefiting, and what that benefit is. And it works; it really does work.
Simone 1:52:38
Well, that was a lot, and there was still more that we could have possibly talked about. I think we’ll just have to have another *chuckling* 100 episodes or so to get through it all.
Tabitha 1:52:50
Oooh!
Simone 1:52:52
But, let’s just, kind of, round out this conversation with what’s, you know, what’s one thing, one takeaway, about Satanism that we’d like to impart to our audience or to strangers? Tabitha, what about you?
Tabitha 1:53:07
For me, I really feel like there’s something to be said about if you’re not early into this thing, just leave us alone. *laughter* And I know, for some people, that’s impossible, especially when you talk about, like, the Satanic Temple and their, you know, push into politics, and, like, you know, and trying to see how, like, show how silly some of the, kind of, Christian beliefs that we all have to, like, kind of, live with us in this country. But, look into it, and learn about it, and if you’re still like, mmm, then just go away. *Simone laughs* And if you’re interested or even, even just a little bit, like, there are people who want to talk to you about it, and you can also listen to our show, and we’ll tell you a lot, a lot about it. *laughing*
Simone 1:53:52
I think for me, so, so this is kind of hard to translate to strangers, or to a larger audience in general, but whenever I’m talking to someone about Satanism, what is Satanism? Why am I Satanist? The thing I just, kind of, want to say is, look, you know me, right? You know me not to be a malicious, evil person, you know me not to be- well, I’m a little bit mentally ill, but not, you know, unreasonably so. *Tabitha laughs* And so, and so, trust me. Trust me that I have looked into this; trust me that I have made a conscious, thoughtful decision, and so trust that I have reasons, and I’m very happy to share those reasons with you. And you don’t have to agree with me, but trust me. I’m not out here eating babies. I’m not out here sacrificing virgins. There are good things, and you know me, and you know what kind of person I am, so trust that there are good things. So, that’s kind of what I would say-
Simone 1:54:56
Or go away. *laughs*
Simone 1:54:57
Yeah. Yes. So, that’s kind of hard to translate to, you know, strangers or, or, you know, people who, who don’t know me in a larger context, but if you are trying, if you the listener, if you, as a person, as an individual, are having trouble, kind of, expressing that, just think about, you know, who it is that you’re talking to. If they’re your friend, if they’re a close family member, then have them trust you a little bit.
Daniel 1:55:24
I guess if I wanted people to know one thing about thing- projects like Satanic Bay Area and Black Mass Appeal is, I would like for everyone who could possibly potentially hear this to know that somewhere out there, there is a place that you belong. Maybe, you’ve got personal reasons why you feel like the conventional values of society, and normal religious institutions, just don’t work for you. Maybe because you’re gay, you’re queer. Maybe because you’re trans or non-gender conforming. Maybe because you’re disabled or you have mental health challenges. Or, maybe you’re like me, and you’re none of those things- actually, I guess I’m a little queer, but I have straight privilege. Let’s not get into the details. My point being that maybe you just don’t feel like it fits for you. Maybe it always just seemed like it was always something that was meant to appeal to other people and meant to turn you off. I want all of those people to know that they- it is entirely possible for you to have those same things: to have community, to have those kinds of relationships with your people, to have this thing in your life that strengthens your resolve and teaches you about yourself, and motivates you, and creates these profound personal connections with the past, and the present, and the future, and that it’s actually okay to want those things and to pursue them. Even if you don’t dig- like, maybe you just don’t dig us that much. Maybe you hear about the Satanic Temple and you don’t like them; a lot of people don’t, but that’s okay. You can go out there and you can find other people who are like you and you can form those relationships; you can create it. You can do it. Religion does not have to be something that is created 1000 years in the past and handed down to us in this sort of decrepit, institutionalized way- I’ve used the word institution so many times in this episode, somebody throw me a synonym, please. *Tabitha laughs* -in this, in this, in this, in this sort of strict, binding, orthodox way. It doesn’t have to be something that you have to compromise yourself for or sacrifice the things that are important to you. It can, and it should be, things that affirm and strengthen all the things you love about yourself, and make you better, and make you love yourself better. That’s been my experience, and I’m so, so happy that it’s happened and that I get to share with the people in this room and the people listening to this, and all I really want, for all of the people out there, is for them to know that it is possible for them to- unless you’re an asshole. *laughter* But you probably didn’t make it all the way through this episode in that case. *(chuckles*
Tabitha 1:57:37
Or go away. *laughs*
Daniel 1:57:38
Yes. And those are the things that I think about when I think about Satan, and that is why I love the character and why I love the practice. I feel like Satan is the person who stands in for all of those people who otherwise would not have anything that stands for them.
Tabitha 1:57:53
That was beautiful. [seriously, daniel. way to make a girl want to cry at like four in the morning]
Simone 1:57:57
Yeah. All right, well. Right before we go away, let’s leave you with the place where you can contact us, which is BlackMassAppealpod@gmail.com. You can also check out our website, BlackMassAppeal.com, and contact us on social media, including Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram as @BlackMassAppeal.
Daniel 1:58:15
If you want to find out more about Satanic Bay Area, check us out at SatanicBayArea.com. You can find us on Instagram and on Facebook as Satanic Bay Area; or follow us on Twitter as @SatanicSF. You can also check out Tabitha on Tik Tok, the handle there is @DailyBaphirmations. And, if you want to come down and add something to our Satanism 101- you see a little math-related humor there, *Tabitha laughs* to follow up on your opening.
Tabitha 1:58:38
I what, I don’t, I, I don’t get it.
Simone 1:58:40
I almost failed math.
Tabitha 1:58:41
What was math? *Daniel giggles*
Daniel 1:58:42
You can do it at Satanic coffee hour at Wicked Grounds coffee shop in San Francisco. Now, here’s the deal!
Tabitha 1:58:48
*Tabitha goes back to the Belial tongue-wagging sound*
Daniel 1:58:50
Wicked Grounds has been closed during the pandemic, of course, and we have been doing Satanic coffee hour online- which meant that there was not nearly as much coffee as there used to be-
Simone 1:58:57
it was-
Tabitha 1:58:57
For you.
Simone 1:58:57
BYOC. Bring your own coffee.
Daniel 1:58:59
The cafe has reopened, but we had- it took a while to get things rescheduled, you know? They, they’re, they’re, they’re populating their calendar. We’re getting in touch with the people who were in charge of things. We have not been able to return for in-person Satanic Coffee hour yet, but! We will. In August. However, there has been a change. Satanic coffee hour is now the third Tuesday of every month- previously it was the third Thursday- before that it was the second Thursday. *Simone chuckles* But, eventually we’ll have been doing this so long that every day on the calendar will have been Satanic coffee hour at some point.
Tabitha 1:59:32
Yay!
Daniel 1:59:33
But starting in August, third Tuesday’s of every month, from 6 to 8PM, at Wicked Grounds coffee in San Francisco.
Tabitha 1:59:38
Change is scary! Ah, I’m scared! *laughter*
Daniel 1:59:41
But change is also the essence of Satan. Although, Satan is also kind of scary, so.
Tabitha 1:59:44
Ahhh! *laughs*
Daniel 1:59:46
Well, Tabitha, do we know what we’re going to be having when we’re there?
Tabitha 1:59:48
Well, um, the apricot tree’s still going crazy- although, by August, the apricot tree won’t be going crazy. Green beans! We will be having green beans because I’m going to bring everybody green beans from the yard.
Daniel 1:59:59
Okay.
Tabitha 1:59:59
So many green beans!
Daniel 2:00:02
And on that note, do we want a ‘Hail Satan’ to go out on? *Tabitha cackles*
Tabitha 2:00:06
I love you trying desperately to make, to get green beans to the, our outro. It was a really good try.
Daniel 2:00:12
I mean, green beans to the outro is what’s happening right now. *Tabitha laughs*
Tabitha 2:00:15
*laughing* Yes I would love to say ‘Hail Satan’ to close out. *Simone laughs*
Daniel 2:00:19
Three, two, one…
Black Mass Appeal 2:00:21
Hail Satan!
Black Mass Appeal 2:00:27
*Propellerhead’s History Repeating plays*
The post Episode 101 – Satanism 101… Part 2 appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
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The devil has many names and many faces, but which one truly inspires our lack of faith? We’re pitting standout Satans head-to-head and horn-to-horn in our playoff-style Satan Bowl to crown the most enlightened Prince of Darkness. Plus, to celebrate our sin-tennial, we open the show with a complete Black Mass!
The post Episode 100 – Satan Bowl (and Black Mass!) appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
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When it comes to naming names, the devil has everyone outnumbered. Two years ago we enumerated the histories of some of Satan’s most malevolent monikers, but there were just too many to name off all of them. So today we’re back for another sinful census, with The Daily Satan’s Alice joining us.
The post Episode 95 – Names of the Devil: The Revenge appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>The post Episode 78 – Third BMAnniversary Video Show appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
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It’s a very special video episode of Black Mass Appeal, the podcast that brings Modern Satanism to the masses! In this episode, we celebrate the third anniversary of the podcast with something different: a trivia game! Simone Lasher runs three rounds of Satanic trivia, as cohosts Daniel Walker and Tabitha Slander take on teams of listener contestants.
Be sure to watch the video version of the show on our YouTube channel!
Praise, condemnation, questions, and your team’s answers can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.
(Scroll down for answers at the bottom of the page.)
ROUND ONE: SATAN
ROUND TWO: SATANISM
ROUND THREE: BLACK MASS APPEAL
ROUND ONE: SATAN
ROUND TWO: SATANISM
ROUND THREE: BLACK MASS APPEAL
The post Episode 78 – Third BMAnniversary Video Show appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
]]>The post Episode 77 – Paradise Lost appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
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It’s another day in Paradise, as we finally tackle the most influential Satanic literary classic of them all. Four hundred years ago, English poet John Milton redefined our ideas about who Satan is and what his struggle means with “Paradise Lost”…although he probably didn’t mean to. Helping us look at Milton’s Satanic epic up close, with a close reading of the most influential Satanic rhetoric in Paradise Lost, we are joined by Bella from the Satanic Bookroom.
Praise, condemnation, questions, and cherubs making frowny faces can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.
Simone 0:04
Welcome to Black Mass Appeal, a podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on Black Mass Appeal, it’s another day in paradise as we finally tackled the most influential satanic literary classic of them all. And in the news, we’re honestly not sure what this doctor ordered and, at home, Satanic Bay Area is considering going far afield. Joining me today I’ve got Daniel.
Daniel 0:29
Hi, my name is Daniel. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area and I’m a member of the Satanic Temple, and I for one am amazed to discover that this episode is in fact not about Simone pining for the tiki bars to reopen.
Simone 0:42
*sighs* Well, my favorite tiki bar is doing takeout cocktails, so, I’m doing okay on that front but yeah, I miss it. *sighs again* Hopefully joining me at a tiki bar sometime in the future is Tabitha.
Tabitha 0:59
Hey, this is Tabitha. I’m an administrator for a Satanic Bay Area and I actually lost my paradise on the bus. Do-where can I call to see if somebody found it and turned it in? *Simone laughs*
Simone 1:10
Joining us later in the show will be Bella from the Satanic Bookroom. And until then, you’ve got me. My name is Simone. I’m an organizer for Satanic Bay Area. And, you know, if you go to the Paradise Lost and Found, there’s lots of, like, chargers there for your phone. A couple of knickknacks, so-
Tabitha 1:29
Left socks.
Simone 1:30
Yeah. Black Mass Appeal is a product of Satanic Bay Area and it is not associated with any other satanic groups. This is a podcast for Satanists is to discuss modern Satanism, its history, left-leaning political activism, and how Satanism relates to current events in pop culture. Or for people who want to learn more about modern Satanism, whether you’re a newbie or already involved in satanic groups. And speaking of satanic groups, what has Satanic Bay Area been planning, I guess?
Daniel 1:59
Well, we do have a couple of things to go down the slate here. One thing that I want to mention, ordinarily, this is the time of the year when we would be planning our satanic summer field trip, for, obvious reasons, that has run into some problems this year. We- some of us have been considering, however, a trip to the San Francisco Zoo, which has recently reopened. That seems like a good trip because we love animals, it’s a Satan thing. Also, because some of the animals down there are having some- there, their welfare is in danger because the zoo was having trouble covering its cost, the costs of taking care of them, so a little bit of business their way couldn’t possibly hurt. At the same time, you can well imagine we are a little bit anxious about the idea of doing any kind of gathering right now, even though the plan that we have follows all of the city’s guidelines, and all the zoo guidelines as well. I think that we’re going to try to organize this, we’ll see how it goes. I only bring this up for our listeners now to point out that, you know, there are rules, and we’re sticking to them, and we’re doing everything we’re supposed to do to take care of everybody, but at the same time, we still have some anxiety and I think that’s not only normal right now, but healthy right now. And if you yourself are grappling with that, to those contradictions, too, you are not alone, so we’re all in this together, slash, safely far apart.
Tabitha 3:18
We originally wanted to go to the Oakland Zoo, but they, they’re not allowing groups more than- I think you can only go with your household. And, which is a shame because they have, like, giant fruit bats there and they’re very cute. But at the same token, like, I definitely respect what they’re trying to do. I can’t wait for this to be over. *sighs*
Daniel 3:40
I mean, we can go see the giant fruit bats on our own about- I think we’ll definitely do that.
Tabitha 3:45
Yeah.
Daniel 3:45
But we can’t do it and, like, a formal group expedition. Indi-we’ll have to do individual bat pilgrimages.
Simone 3:52
Yeah, having you know, like 20 Satanists all show up at the same time, all of us looking like Satanists dressed in all black, I think they’re gonna quickly figure out that we all just didn’t happen to randomly show up on the same day.
Tabitha 4:07
Right.
Daniel 4:08
To when we all go to the goat enclosure first is probably going to give the game away. *laughter*
Simone 4:13
Well, two other things that we have coming up. First, we are working on a project, an audio project. We are looking for Spanish speakers. Must be fluent in Spanish and capable of discussing Satan-y things in Spanish. So if you’re so inclined, please get in contact with us, you know the email address, so there’s one. Then, we’re also looking for viewer participants. We have our anniversary show coming up and we’re going to make a little game out of it, so if you want to join us for [an] audio or zoom, little situation, that we can explain in more detail later, get in contact with us. So, we do have some fun stuff coming up.
Daniel 5:01
Man, can you believe we’ve been doing this for three years now?
Simone 5:03
No, no, I don’t. It can’t. I don’t-
Daniel 5:06
Just like last year, it seems like both way less time and way more time than that.
Tabitha 5:11
*laughs* Yes, yes. And yes.
Simone 5:14
Now, for the old school way of having a little listener participation, we have our apple podcast reviews! So, our first review comes from SpiderMike89, who says “absolutely amazing! I started with Episode One, as I’m new to Satanism, and the title intrigued me. In just a few short weeks, I’m up to Episode 40. Yes, I have a lot of time in my hands as a security patrol officer. I sent you an email with a short story that I hope you can share if it’s not too long because Episode 39 had some stories that I can relate to. I’ll have to keep listening to, one day, hear this review on the podcast, keep up your unholy work!” Well, we always have the possibility of repeating, you know, topics, revisiting topics, especially the ones that were really viewer-driven. People who sent in their letters about their experiences. It’s always good to hear from new perspectives. And, you know, we have so many topics to talk about, but we never quite finished talking about any one of them, so definitely could be in the cards.
Daniel 6:18
I just want to offer an extra personal message to SpiderMike right now, so this is it. The day is here. You’re hearing it. Was it everything you dreamed up? Let us know.
Tabitha 6:28
Yeah. How long did it take for you to get to it? Was it like, a couple more weeks? Or, you know, write us another review! That’s it, no, I’m just kidding. *laughter*
Daniel 6:39
But thank you very much; we love having you.
Simone 6:41
Okay, our next one is KrishaVak [?], who says, “I’m essential, and so is this podcast. In these difficult and confusing times, it only makes sense to have something that is not only a great distraction, but an insightful and entertaining commentary as well. The crew at BMA are not only funny, but educational. Thank you for all that you are doing, hail yourselves, and Hail Satan!” Well, hail you! I mean, you don’t say what your profession is, but essential workers are exactly that, essential, and they do not get thanked enough or recognized enough. So, please accept this, you know, attempt at saying thank you.
Tabitha 7:22
*sad voice* I’ve never been essential before. *laughs*
Simone 7:27
I think Daniel would disagree.
Tabitha 7:30
*squeaks*
Simone 7:31
And he says nothing. *Tabitha laughs*
Daniel 7:34
Well, what else is there to say? *laughter*
Tabitha 7:36
Thank you.
Daniel 7:38
Sometimes I’m not essential, so I keep to myself in those cases.
Tabitha 7:42
No, mmm, that’s a lie.
Simone 7:44
I’m just a bunch of essential oils in human form. *laughter*
Tabitha 7:50
Thank you.
Simone 7:50
I’m very squishy, very squishy inside and when I sit, I leave a sheen, like Soul Glow, in Coming to America.
Tabitha 7:52
Eww…
Simone 7:58
Anyway, moving on, our last review here is from Dude.50 who says, “Just what I was missing-“
Daniel 8:05
Actually, I want to point out this is Dude-point-50. I think, I think that’s a measurement.
Simone 8:10
Some-maybe caliber? 50 caliber dude? *laughter*
Tabitha 8:15
Yes.
Simone 8:16
So Dude says, “I’m an atheist, and I practice Secular Buddhism, but I enjoy exploring other’s views and I’ve always felt that there was a part missing from my beliefs slash lack thereof. I’m glad that in my exploration, I found your podcast. While I’d heard of TST with the Decalogue case in Arkansas, before this I had not had the courage to explore Satanism further. Now I’m a card-carrying member of TST. As an ICU nurse, I have only told one person because in these Midwest communities gossip spreads like a virus.-“
Tabitha 8:47
Yikes.
Simone 8:48
“-Thank you for being here and producing the podcast. Hail Satan.” Again, hail you for being an ICU nurse on the frontlines!
Tabitha 8:56
Thank you.
Simone 8:57
I mean, again, hail yourself.
Daniel 9:00
Also, great use of the word decalogue.
Simone 9:03
Yeah, that’s, that is a good one.
Tabitha 9:05
Yeah. Ten dollar word.
Simone 9:07
For the Ten Commandments. *Tabitha laughs* Okay, well, the other helpful thing that folks can do to support the show is to contribute to the Patreon. The Patreon is the means by which we, you know, run this whole shindig. It also helps us to donate money to causes that, you know, we feel align with our values. Whether or not they’re Satanic, if they’re doing good works that, you know, work with our values, then we want to help out, we want to support. So for the month of July, we were able to donate to OCCUR, which is a foundation here in Oakland, and they say they “serve as a facilitator and catalyst bringing together neighborhood residents, merchants, and government to strengthen and stimulate the economic development potential of emerging communities.” They have a lot of different initiatives under their umbrella. One of them is the small black-owned business fund, which is helping folks out during this time that’s very hard on small businesses. And if you’re interested in learning more about OCCUR’s work or want to donate yourself, their website is occurnow.org, and so, we are honored to be able to offer, you know, a little bit of monetary support and we have you guys to thank for it. So, to thank our contributors, we’ve got Krista, then in the Mark of the Mini Beast Club, which is $3.33 per month, we’ve got MountainMurders.
Tabitha 10:42
Mmm…
Daniel 10:43
That sounds like a good podcast, too.
Simone 10:44
Yeah. *Tabitha laughs* And then in the Mark of the Beast Club, we’ve got a Crystal Palladino, Jimmy Nails, Richard Proctor, and Thomas Jacob. And then one more to thank is Mason Woods who is an upgrade!
Daniel 11:01
Yes, he has upgraded far beyond the Mark of the Beast Club member level now. He’s on to multiple beasts. I also want to point out that he has, in the past, upgraded to contribute more and then sometimes dial that back a little bit less, but then bumped it up again, so we mentioned him on the show a lot so if you ever, like, want multiple shout outs, he’s got the formula down. He’s figured it out.
Tabitha 11:26
Is he in the super secret, like, Illuminati tier of the Patreon? *laughs*
Daniel 11:33
*stage whispers* Don’t talk about super secret Illuminati tier!
Tabitha 11:36
Oh shit, sorry! *fake coughs* I mean, Ba-luminati. *laughter*
Simone 11:43
it’s just, it’s the Illuminati but with, like, a little mustache on it. *laugher* Would it be, like for Wario, like, Wa-luminati? *laugher*
Tabitha 11:52
*laughing* Wa-luminati!
Daniel 11:55
Oh, good that covered our tracks expertly! *laughter*
Simone 11:59
Okay, *Luigi voice* it’sa me, Wa-luminati! *Tabitha laughs*
Daniel 12:07
*chuckling* I hope [unitelligible] after that.
Simone 12:09
Okay, let’s go ahead, take a break and we’ll come back with the news!
Black Mass Appeal 12:30
*Interlude music*
NEWS
Tabitha 12:30
*old-timey breaking news doots*
Simone 12:30
Those doots mean time for the news! It’s right on schedule! So, today we are reading from the Daily Beast: “The President is pushing the Coronavirus theories of a Houston doctor who also says sexual visitations by demons and alien DNA are at the root of Americans common health concerns.” *pauses* It’s quite the title. “A Houston Doctor who praises hydroxychloroquine and says that face masks aren’t necessary to stop transmission of the highly contagious Coronavirus has become a star on the right-wing internet, garnering 10’s of millions of views on Facebook on Monday alone. Donald Trump Jr. declared the video of Stella Immanuel, a must-watch.” Ugh, there’s a recommendation. “Before Trump and his supporters embrace Immanuel’s medical expertise, though, they should consider other medical claims Immanuel has made, including those about alien DNA and the physical effects of having sex with witches and demons in your dreams. Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister-” Mmm.. “-has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She’s often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches. She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious.” If only. “And despite appearing in Washington DC to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part, not by humans, but by reptilians and other aliens. Immanuel gave her viral speech on the steps of the Supreme Court at the White Coat Summit, a gathering of a handful of doctors who call themselves America’s frontline doctors and dispute the medical consensus on the novel Coronavirus. Toward the end of Immanuel’s speech, the event’s organizer and other participants can be seen trying to get her away from the microphone. *laughs* But footage of the speech captured by Breitbart was a hit online, becoming a top video on Facebook. Both Facebook and Twitter eventually deleted videos of Immanuel’s speech from their sites citing rules against COVID-19 disinformation. The deletion set off yet another round of complaints by conservatives of bias at the social media platforms. Immanuel responded in her own way, declaring that Jesus Christ would destroy Facebook servers if her videos weren’t restored on the platform. In her sermons, Immanuel offers a sort of demonology of Nephilim, the biblical characters she claims exist as demonic spirits and lust after dream sex with humans causing all manner of real health problems and financial ruin. Immanuel claims real-life ailments such as fibroid tumors and cysts stem from the demonic sperm after demon dream sex, an activity she claims affects many women. ‘They turn into a woman and then they sleep with a man and collect his sperm,’ Immanuel said in her sermon, ‘then they turn into the man and they sleep with a man and deposit the sperm and reproduce more of themselves.’ *sighs* According to Immanuel, people can tell if they have taken a demonic spirit husband or spirit wife if they have a sex dream about someone they know or a celebrity, wake up aroused, and stop getting along with their real-world spouse, lose money or generally experience any hardship. In a 2015 sermon that laid out a supposed Illuminati plan hatched by a witch to destroy the world using abortion, gay marriage in children’s toys, among other things. Immanuel claimed that DNA from space aliens is currently being used in medicine. Immanuel argues that a wide variety of toys, books, and TV shows from Pokemon, which she declares Eastern demons, to Harry Potter and the Disney Channel shows Wizards of Waverly Place and That’s So Raven were all a part of a scheme to introduce children to spirits and witches. Immanuel warned that the Disney Channel show Hannah Montana was a gateway to evil because its character had an alter ego. She has claimed that schools teach children to meditate so that they can meet with demons. In the sermon, Immanuel preserves special vitriol for the magic eight ball, *Daniel laughs* a toy that can be shaken up to reveal any answer. Immanuel claims that the otherwise innocuous magic eight ball was in fact a scheme to get children used to witchcraft. ‘The eight ball was a psychic,’ she said. She didn’t bring up this allegation publicly in Washington, but she has claimed that the American government is run in part by non-human reptilians. ‘There are people that are ruling this nation that are not even human,’ Immanuel said in her 2015 Illuminati sermon, before launching into a conversation she had with a reptilian spirit she described as half-human, half ET.” *pauses* Wow, that’s a lot.
Tabitha 13:22
So what did she gettin’ her show? *Simone laughs* When is she going on, what, Fox News?
Simone 17:46
Fuck a show, she’s gettin’, she’s getting a cabinet position.
Tabitha 17:49
*laughs* Yeah.
Simone 17:51
Meet your new Surgeon General!
Tabitha 17:53
Uhh, no, Simoneee! *laughs*
Simone 17:57
Hey, like, that’s a fucked up joke, but you know it’s been considered.
Tabitha 18:02
*groaning* It’s true! *Simone laughs* That was a lot. I hate it here. *groans again*
Daniel 18:11
Oh, where to start? First of all, this is actually- those are just selections from a very long piece by Will Sommer, who’s a great writer and really funny to follow on Twitter. Well, that stinks. If you’re curious, Immanuel herself tweeted Will’s story, saying that it very accurately conveyed the substance of her sermons, so-
Simone 18:21
Yikes!
Daniel 18:28
-there’s that. If you’re wondering where she got that weird bit about how the demons turn into women to sleep with men to get sperm to then turn into men to impregnate women with, I-this is a very old belief. I actually believe that straight out of the Malleus Maleficarum, the 16th-century German inquisitors manual and it was to answer the question of how it is possible for demons to- demons don’t have bodies, so therefore how could they possibly impregnate women? That is, of course, theology of the time, insisted that they could and of course, the answer was, well, they must get it from, from a man instead because naturally. So, I don’t know what her source was, but that is *a* source for that belief. Uh, geez, where else, where, where do you even go with this one. You know what? This perfectly encapsulates a problem that I brought up on the show so many times, and that I brought up recently when we were talking to Steven Bradford Long on sacred tension is, you know, people have these religious beliefs that to us seem bizarre and even irrational. But at the same time, there’s a weird sort of separation of powers, where, despite believing things that I think are crazy, these people still managed to be rational and reasonable about most other things. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re doctors, they’re lawyers, they’re bus drivers. They do these jobs in a way that I don’t have to worry about them. Somehow they keep these things separate. I don’t know how, it doesn’t make sense to me, but that seems to be the way the world works. And that separation is one of the things that allows a person like me to respect their beliefs, even if I think they’re weird or nuts. Here’s where that line has been crossed! This is an example of why it is so critical for people to continue to maintain that separation because once you start stepping over that, it’s like, I can’t. I can’t. This is, this is where, like, you know, I try to be nice and try to be respectful, even when I have mixed feelings about that expectation, but it’s, like, here’s the-this is it, this is it. If this is not too far, what is, you know? Don’t go to this doctor, okay? *laughter* She’s a pediatrician? Don’t take your kids. Okay?
Simone 20:49
What- yeah, what is she prescribing for these children?
Daniel 20:52
That’s what I’m saying! I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s- *groans*
Tabitha 20:58
I’m just sad. I’m sad that these people are getting platformed. I’m sad that, that this is where we are right now.
Simone 21:07
How did I get here?
Tabitha 21:09
Yeah.
Simone 21:09
I keep thinking about that Talking Heads line more and more.
Daniel 21:13
But here’s what I’m trying to get at in the, the enormity of, the enormity of this situation crushed my spirit for a second there, but I’m fine now. These beliefs are not necessarily that unusual in the circles that somebody like her travels in. The only difference is, do people let them affect their politics and their work? A lot of people do not. And when they do, that’s what, like, that, that’s the red, that’s the red line. That’s the hard red line. How people stay on one side of the line, I don’t know, but most people seem to be able to do it. So, it’s, it’s very strange to consider that there are a lot of people who kind of live in two worlds, where on the one hand they believe these things, but on the other hand, they let a different set of standards influence their behavior in the most important things. I’m glad they’re able to do that. I don’t quite get hows so *groans* there we have it. *laughter* Actually, one more thing. Tabitha pointed out on Twitter recently that we’ve got the right to fuck demons in our sleep if we want to. *Simone laughs*
Tabitha 22:13
Yes. Look, I am a, an adult. and if I want to fuck a demon? Who’s gonna fucking stop me? You can’t stop me. That’s what I do in my bedroom. I can do whatever the fuck I want. I can do it at the Walmart-
Simone 22:26
As long as it’s, you know, consenting Tabitha and consenting demon, I don’t see anything wrong with it.
Tabitha 22:31
Yeah, I mean, it’s funny when I wrote that Twitter thing, you know, I was trying to kind of evoke the, like, anti-maskers. But really, like, I was just, like, immediately into it, so I don’t know if that- *laughter* -if maybe I failed in, in what I was trying to accomplish, but I don’t know.
Simone 22:46
You convinced yourself.
Tabitha 22:47
Yeah.
Daniel 22:47
That was the thing, like, when you read that part where she says ‘this is a problem that affects many women,’ I can imagine a lot of women read that say, ‘tell me more…’
Simone 22:54
*laughs* All right, well, let’s go ahead. We’ll take a break. And we’ll come back with our main topic.
Black Mass Appeal 23:07
*interlude music*
MAIN TOPIC
Simone 23:24
400 years ago, English poet John Milton redefined our ideas about who Satan is and what his struggle means, even if that’s probably really not what he meant to do. Helping us look at Milton’s Satanic epic up close, with a close reading of the most influential Satanic rhetoric in Paradise Lost, we have Bella from the Satanic Bookroom. Thanks for joining us, Bella!
Bella 23:49
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Simone 23:52
Well, we’re excited to have you. So, for the folks who aren’t familiar, I want you to tell us a little bit more about yourself, your relation to Satanism, and the Satanic Bookroom, and Paradise Lost.
Bella 24:04
All right, well, I first came across Satanism, probably in the 90s and that was through the Satanic Bible and Anton LaVey. I didn’t really start in a serious manner until about 2012, where I was questioning a lot of the things going on around me with Christianity, and my conflict with it with being an atheist, and I decided to look into Satanism. In 2016, I came across the Satanic Temple, which also fostered more thought into it as an organized religion, and therefore decided to call myself a Satanist, which I’ve been ever since. It feels like a spot to be in that will probably be lifelong for me and continue to expand. So I’m a supporter of TST and also spend a lot of independent time exploring and looking at my religion now. I also have a group on Facebook called the Satanic Bookroom that assists with the- discovering the Satanic literature that is the basis of a lot of philosophies for our religion, and includes almost 5000 members from all walks of life- some of them identify as Satanists, and others are just curious in learning about, about Satanism.
Simone 25:26
Now, obviously, since you’re, you know, literature-oriented, when was the first time that you read Paradise Lost?
Bella 25:34
I first was introduced to it in college, which was probably in the 90s. I was trying to remember back as we were having this episode, if we had actually read through the whole thing; it’s quite a long epic. *laughs* So-
Simone 25:48
*laughs* No kidding!
Bella 25:49
Yeah, that’s where I was first introduced to it.
Daniel 25:52
Just to get a plugin, by the way, I believe the current group read for the Satanic Bookroom right now is still Lord Byron’s Kane, which we talked about just two episodes prior, so anybody who thought that sounded intriguing, there’s a good opportunity to get in on the group if it strikes your fancy. I guess anybody who didn’t think that Kane sounded interesting, I really appreciate you coming back for this episode. It shows you’re very open-minded.
Simone 26:17
Yeah, it is. You know, as we discussed on the episode, two episodes ago, about the Romantics, John Milton was not a Romantic, but he really influenced them, so it’s still kind of in that literary vein. So if it’s not your thing, well, you can re-listen to the goat episode. That was a fun episode.
Tabitha 26:35
I do believe that that episode was 75? *laughs* For once, I know which one it is, haha!
Daniel 26:46
Also, on the topic of how long this poem is, I kind of feel like I owe Simone an apology, even though I’m sure she probably does not remember this, because, of course, we’ve talked about doing an episode about this before and I think there was one time when it came up that I said, ‘I don’t know, do you want to do all the reading?’ And later, I realized, that was a really dick question! Like as if, you know, like, like, it sounded like, it seems like a very pompous thing to say. And I’m sure nobody else remembers this conversation, but it’s been bothering me, so sorry about that. That was, that was not a tactful way to feel out a prospect for the program. *chuckles*
Simone 27:20
I don’t remember that. I- thank you for the apology. But, it is, it is quite long. I mean, we’ll, we’ll kind of get into this more, but I mean, it’s ten books, I guess in some versions, it’s 12. It’s a, you know, they use the word epic for ‘epic poem’ for a reason.
Daniel 27:41
Well, I did get a tip- our unfaithful listener HollowHeathen told us- I think it was HollowHeathen- told us that, when she read it, she listened to the audiobook simultaneously and followed along with it, which to me sounded a little weird, but if that helps, great, that’s awesome. And actually, the useful thing about the audiobook is that you will know exactly how long it will take you to read this because *laughter* you can look at the timer, so that’s probably a good mental tool for some people who might feel a little bit intimidated tackling the text. Anybody out there, if anybody else out there has done that, let us know how it worked out for you.
Simone 28:16
Yeah, I was about to say, she’s not the only person I’ve heard who has done that. I know a couple of people who have listened to it on audio, you know, the audiobook. You know, it’s, it’s, if you’re not into that kind of like, sort of, Shakespearean language in terms of reading with the kind of, you know, the older style spellings just to listen to it, and absorb it that way is, also, I mean, it’s a wonderful way to do it.
Bella 28:46
Also, I would point out that the more recent reading I did of Paradise Lost was- it [was] with plain English. *laughs* It’s obviously written in English, so it’s kind of funny that there’s an English version that makes it more plain and my copy has it right next to each other, so you can read some of the more flowery and winding language and then just get it straight in a couple sentences right next to it, and that really helped.
Tabitha 29:14
*laughing* He sat down! Okay? *laughter*
Bella 29:16
Exactly.
Simone 29:17
That’s the kind, that’s the one that I had. That’s the one that I read most recently, and, I do have to admit, though, that the Kindle version that I got, I don’t, I can’t remember, like, who edited it or whatever. But it’s so funny because it’ll actually do, like, a line from the poem in the original text, and then just below it is the ‘quote-unquote translation,’ or the simplification, but it’s real funny to me because, they’ll be like three, like, very dense, you know, sentences and then, like, just one -way- over a simplified English sentence underneath it. It will be this long passage about, you know, ‘Satan and his wings and flying,’ and then the English is, ‘he flew.’ *laughter* Okay. That was helpful. Okay. Anyway, before we get too deep into this, let’s offer some contextualization about John Milton and the circumstances of him writing this thing. Daniel, do you want to take this first one?
Daniel 30:20
For the record, this is the same very brief, one-paragraph bio culled from the Academy of American Poets that we included back on Episode 58, so a little bit of review, but you know, not everybody has heard every episode also, you probably haven’t heard Episode 58 recently, it was a while back. So, “John Milton was born in London in 1607, into a middle-class family. He was educated at Christ’s College, Cambridge.” I always really love that phrase, by the way, because it sounds, It sounds very exasperated. ‘Christtt’s Collegeee.’ *Simone laughs* “-and prepared to enter the clergy after university, however, he abandoned his plans to join the priesthood, and spent the next six years at his father’s country home following a rigorous course of independent study to prepare for a career as a poet.” I don’t know if this is a proper characterization of this, but this kind of makes me think about, you know, when you drop out of school to tour with your band.
Simone 31:12
I’m just thinking about, you know, if you want to have a career as a poet, like, do ya get your LinkedIn set up, you know? The, the career of a poet, when approached in that manner seems, a little- *laughs* I don’t know.
Tabitha 31:28
You bench press books, is what you do.
Simone 31:29
Yeah.
Daniel 31:31
I mean, you’re joking, but actually, yeah, it kind of was a who you know sort of thing in those times. Although bench pressing books, I kind of like that image, too. *laughter* It continues, “during the English Civil War-” This is, there’s a lot of English civil wars. This was the 17th-century one when Parliament cut the king’s head off. “Milton championed the cause of the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell, and wrote a series of pamphlets advocating radical political topics, including the morality of divorce, the freedom of the press, populism, and sanctioned regicide. After the restoration of Charles the Second to the throne in 1660, Milton was arrested as a defender of the Commonwealth, but soon released. He lived the rest of his life in seclusion of the country, completing the blank-verse epic poem Paradise Lost in 1667.” And when I say it’s who you know, I seem to remember from our study of this in college, it really was kind of his friends in high places who admired his poetical work. We got a spring from prison after this because he was pretty deep into the movement there. It also helped at that time, he was an old man and blind and so, kind of feeble, so he had a good, he had a good pity vote for clemency there, as well. It continues, “Paradise Lost chronicles Satan’s temptations of Adam and Eve, and their expulsion from Eden. Since its publication, the work has continually elicited debate regarding its theological themes, political commentary, and its depiction of Satan, who is often viewed as the protagonist of the work.” Often? Is there anybody who does not? I, I-
Simone 32:56
Well, I was actually reading an essay to this effect about how the definitions of protagonists stand, does Satan meet all of them? I wish, I should have just pulled that up, but there are some who argue that God is the protagonist of this work. So-
Daniel 33:12
That’s interesting.
Simone 33:13
-there you have it.
Daniel 33:14
I guess that does make sense in a way although he is a rather remote personage, but then, you know, he’s got-
Simone 33:19
Isn’t he always?
Daniel 33:20
Yeah, he doesn’t have to get out of the house very much. I used to joke of, like, you know, in the old days, like, God was very sociable, he would go hang out with Abraham and with Moses and the prophets and what have you. These days, like, he just stays at home all the time, nobody ever hears from him, his son died a while ago and he seems like he just never really got over it. Very sad story.
Simone 33:41
Well, you know, maybe he tried to appear as a burning bush again, and it got out of hand because it was here in California. *Daniel laughs* Sorry, that’s terrible.
Daniel 33:50
Somebody just hit him with the fire extinguisher like in Dogma, that was the end of it. *laughter*
Simone 33:55
Okay, so now that’s kind of the overview of Milton and the circumstances of his life leading up to this. He, in my reading, one of the things that I thought was interesting is that he was very determined to write an epic poem, and he, I guess, like, kind of toyed with the idea of doing something about King Arthur and, but it was, yeah, towards the later part of his life that he actually kind of went through with it, so. It’s that thing of where you work on your first album for a really, really long time and, and then it’s a hit, and then, you know, do you have anything to follow it up with? But. Anyway, focusing on Paradise Lost, as we mentioned before, this has 10 to 12 books depending on the edition. We’re going to talk about 12, the 12 version. And, so, just to give people context for the more in-depth discussion, we’re gonna whip through these 12 books real fast.
Tabitha 34:59
Okay, so previously on Paradise Lost in Book One, Satan and the rebel angels, cast out of Heaven, awake to find themselves in Hell. Satan and his Lieutenant Beelzebub vowed to continue defying God, and they fashion a plan to spoil Eden for the newly created humanity. Book number two, the fallen angels hold a great council to debate their next course and Satan tells them that he will travel to Earth to execute their plan. Flying to the gates of Hell, he finds him guarded by his daughter, Sin, who sprang from his head at the moment he conceived of disobedience in Heaven, and their incestuous son, Death. Sin unlocks the gates and Satan flies out into the realm of Chaos, where all of the strange things that God neglected to use to create the universe still reign. And he persuades the Lord of Chaos to direct him towards the world. Book number three, back in Heaven, God in his son, who is not yet called Jesus, having not yet been born as a man on Earth, discuss what’s happening. Book Three is honestly pretty boring. And if you skip it, you’re not missing much. But it does include one intriguing bit. God knows Satan’s plan, and is going to let it happen, in part because if he never gives humans the opportunity to disobey, then they will, in effect, be slaves.
Simone 36:21
Bella, do you want to take the next three?
Bella 36:23
Yeah, I’ll take the next three. All right, so let’s continue with Book Four. Satan, finding himself in Eden, is charmed by the beauty of the world, but also tortured by regret, doubt, and uncertainty. Despite this emotional turmoil, he vows to press on with his plan and spies Eve and Adam at work. That night, he creeps into their sleeping place, and whispers promises into Eve’s ear, but some of God’s angels discover him and drive him away. Book Five, the angel Raphael visits Eve and Adam and warns them that an enemy is near. Well, he actually just warns Adam because Eve shouldn’t worry about big stuff like that with her womanly mind. Raphael describes how war broke out in Heaven after some of the angels refused to bow God’s new son, and Satan rallied them to his side. Book number six, the rebel angels and the loyalists meet in battle, which is pretty futile since angels can’t die. Satan even invents cannons to overwhelm his foes, but cannot turn the tide. Finally, on the third day of war, God’s son leads the charge, and the rebels are cast down.
Simone 37:47
All right, well, I’ll take this next bit here. So, previously on Books Seven and Eight, Raphael relates the creation of the world, the creation of Adam, and all the other living creatures, and, last of all, Eve. Moving on to Book Nine, despite the warnings, Eve and Adam work in separate parts of the garden the next day. Satan inhabits the body of the serpent and approaches Eve, and, amazed to see an animal speak, Eve listens to his story about how he ate the fruit of a particular tree and gained knowledge. Though she protests that she’s forbidden to eat fruit from that same tree, Satan persuades her to taste and after eating, she resolves to convince Adam, too. Daniel, want the, want to bring us home?
Daniel 38:37
You got it. In Book Ten, Satan returns to Hell loosing Sin and Death on the world and erecting a road between Hell and Earth. As punishment, all of the Fallen Angels are transformed into snakes, Satan becoming the dragon- so hey, good, we’re wrapping it up there from Genesis to Revelation, that’s smart story-telling- and they pour forth into the world. In Book 11, God’s son arrives on Earth to pass judgment on Eve and Adam. Here’s a case where Milton breaks from Scripture a little bit here by sending Jesus to do God’s job, interesting choice there. To comfort his punishment, Adam is granted visions of the history of the world to come. Eve is not because *laughs* for fuck’s sake.
Simone 39:17
Womanly reasons?
Daniel 39:18
Uh, yes. In Book 12, the angels continue to relate the history of the world become and then finally, in a bittersweet conclusion, Eve and Adam comfort each other as they leave Paradise forever, and I actually find the closing lines of this poem very, very touching from- for, for my purposes. So yeah, so this is- I used the Dartmouth version here, because it’s online and it’s much easier to be able to copy and paste these. *Simone laughs* Copy and paste the verses into the show sheet rather than transcribing them by hand because they’re long. And so yeah, this is the 12 book version. The 10 book version condenses some of these together like Books Seven and Eight become the same one because they’re eventually- because they’re, you know, two halves of the same story. There is a lot of debate about the proper way to divide up the story. There’s a lot of debate about the proper way to punctuate the poem. For example, people will fall into rat holes that never come out of on that. I don’t think we have to worry about that sort of thing here, but, you know, be prepared that if you wade into the discourse, these are the sorts of things that are going to come up.
Simone 39:34
So there you have it, the very, very brief movie trailer version of Paradise Lost, and all of its books. Now-
Tabitha 40:30
Paradise Lost for Dummies. *chuckles*
Simone 40:33
Yes, Paradise Lost Cliffnotes. Do they have those still? Like the, the paper, the yellow paperback copies? They-
Tabitha 40:40
I dunno.
Simone 40:41
Yeah-
Daniel 40:42
I see them in college bookstores all the time, so yeah, they must.
Tabitha 40:46
Are you going to college bookstores a lot? Daniel? *chuckles*
Daniel 40:49
No, but I go to Alexander’s Books over on Second Street, which is very close to the Downtown Campus of City College and they carry a lot of materials for the students there.
Tabitha 40:57
All right. All right, I’ll allow it.
Simone 40:59
*laughs* Okay. So, now we’re going to take our deeper dive here and we’re going to go through the books and- kind of focus on a particular quote and pull it apart a little bit for you. So, let’s just keep the order that we had. So Tab, why don’t you read this quote here from Book One?
Tabitha 41:20
Okay. So this is Satan and Beelzebub plan for the future. “Is this the region, the soil, the clime,’ said then the last archangel, this the seat, that we must change for heaven, this mournful gloom for that celestial light? Be it so, since he who now is sovereign can dispote and bid what shall be right: farthest from him is best, whom reason has equaled, force has made supreme above his equals. Farewell, happy fields where joy forever dwells: Hail horrors, hail infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell receive thy new possessor. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven; Here at least we shall be free: in my choice, to rain is worth ambition, though in Hell: better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.”
Simone 42:30
I know so many of you guys have that tattooed on you out there.
Tabitha 42:34
Yeah. *chuckles*
Simone 42:35
That last line. ‘Cuz it’s a great fucking line!
Tabitha 42:38
It is.
Simone 42:39
‘Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.’
Bella 42:42
If there was one mantra for Satanism, that would probably be it.
Tabitha 42:47
Yeah, I’m gonna definitely agree with that. [unintelligible chatter] I’m like, are you gonna finish that? *laughter*
Daniel 42:55
You know, this is a great book for people who don’t have the fortitude for long reads because if you only end up reading the first one or two sections, you’re still getting a lot of the really good stuff, a lot of the really good stuff is these first two chapters in Hell, and, you know, you’ll still have a lot of the reference points under your belt by the time you get to the end of those. Not that I’m saying you shouldn’t read the rest, but I’m saying, for folks who drop out early, they, they have still been enriched, so lucky that. I get chills every time I read this bit, I- particularly, I- It’s just. Ooh, stirring.
Tabitha 43:31
Yeah, it is.
Daniel 43:33
Okay, so we’ve got, like, some good book club discussion questions here. One of them- I particularly like this, there’s this weird phrase that sneaks in here talking about God, ‘whom reason has equaled, force has made supreme above his equals.’ So Satan here is kind of saying, ‘logic would say that God is our equal. Force made him better than his equals.’ What the hell do you think that means? Because that is some tricksy little wordplay that he’s got going on there.
Bella 44:03
For me, what I saw was the beginning of the breakdown of the system of hierarchy that God had put into Heaven, so this is the beginning of Satan being able to see that, hey, that God is no better than everyone else. He’s kind of seeing God for what he is, and this view is the crumbling of this structure right now to be removed. So, he’s seeing that only force has made him better than his equals, but is, is really starting to relate that his authoritarian-authoritarianism is just assigned and therefore begin to dissipate inSatan’s mind
Tabitha 44:45
Yeah, I get that same kind of impression that, like, you know, what, like, really it’s more of a question. Like, what, what is it that makes him better, other than he’s in charge is you know, he decided. *chuckles*
Simone 44:59
I’m your heavenly father and I said, so.
Tabitha 45:02
Yeah. *laughs*
Bella 45:04
I feel like the levels of hierarchy is a very, very base thing in Christianity and the opposite being a very consistent thing with Satanism, where we often eschew the system of hierarchies. And that’s the idea, like, as a Satanist, I become responsible for myself and [am] my own God, and a lot of those things- ideas have been broken down as Satanism often uses the value of authenticity, which goes against comparison, therefore, breaks down systems of hierarchy. And so, that’s kind of the difference between Christian ideology and Satanist ideologies. So I kind of see this as the beginning of Satan becoming Satanic.
Daniel 45:53
This-
Simone 45:54
If the, the kind of kernel at the heart of the, the whole questioning of the system.
Bella 45:59
Exactly.
Daniel 46:01
Well, you remember last episode when we were talking about the Goya paintings, and that particular critic whose name I can’t recall said, ‘really, there’s two basic schools of thought about these. You can read it straight, or you can read it ironically.’ I guess the ironic, subversive reading of this is the one that we’ve just given it, where this idea of it’s really just kind of trying to de-legitimize God and de-legitimize the fact that the war turned out one way to say, ‘well, God is not any better than us. He just happened to have won.’ He won through, like, you know, force- is like, the most basic, least, the most basic means of achieving something in the way that’s least afforded respect. Um, that’s probably not what Milton had in mind, though- I mean, I don’t know John Milton, people have been arguing about that for about 400 goddamn years now- Um, but, keeping in mind who he was, I think what’s interesting is that we’ll see in the later chapters, that Satan made this argument before the war, where he said, ‘is God’s superior to us? That’s news to me.’ So here, it’s possible he’s trying to preserve that philosophical and ideological structure, again, even in the face of the fact that they failed, which, like I said, it’s kind of tricksy. It’s, it’s, it’s- Satan’s rhetoric, the way that he changes values around and makes things very relativistic, Heaven for Hell, Hell for Heaven. This is the same way- he’s doing the same thing here, he’s saying, ‘winning, losing, forced worthiness, what do these things even mean?’ Let’s just, let’s just clear away these distinctions at all time, which again- is *probably* not supposed to be a good thing, but, for obvious reasons, we’re much more sympathetic to that perspective than probably the ideal reader at the time was.
Bella 47:45
I could see what you mean, because the term, ‘it’s better to roll in hell’, or ‘it’s better to reign in hell than serve in heaven,’ could also be looked at as sour grapes. *laughs* Because he just lost and was banned to hell, instead of-
Tabitha 48:03
For sure.
Bella 48:03
-this profound thing that a Satanist take of like, ‘yes, that is the basis of who we are.’ So, and of course, what he had said to that- this is not what Milton was trying to do, like, make the template for modern-day Satanists *laughs* to read over it and get some good material for our own basis of philosophy. His ideology for making this epic was to-I guess justify to Man that God was really pulling the strings and had planned this all along or, like, has, what is it? Eternal Providence was a term that was used as, as a goal for this Paradise Lost epic. So yeah, it does go back and forth, I see, where there’s a theme that seems to be going my way of things that I like and then, and then I turn around I’m like, ‘ah,’ he just seems kind of like he’s being an asshole and jealous of the way that things turned out. So you’re right it can definitely go both ways.
Tabitha 49:08
He’s like, I didn’t want to be on Twitter, anyway. You can ban me. I don’t care! *laughter* I got, uh? Friendster? *laughs*
Simone 49:18
It’s-
Tabitha 49:19
Friendster is Hell is what I’m trying to say. *giggle*
Simone 49:23
I was just thinking of the, the Alt-right assholes who declared that they’re leaving Twitter for what’s it? Parler, or Gab, or whatever? *in dumb voice* We’re gonna build our own Twitter with Nazis and terrible people. It’ll be great! But-
Tabitha 49:40
Man, it’s gonna be the echoiest chamber that ever was. Hurray!
Simone 49:44
Okay, let’s move on to Book Two. Bella, why don’t you read the passage?
Bella 49:49
Alrighty, well, in this passage, Satan is telling the fallen angels that he’ll conduct the expedition to Eden himself. All right. “Long is the way and hard, that out of Hell leads to the light: Our prison strong, this huge convex of fire, immures us round ninefold, and gates of burning adamant barred prohibit all egress. These past, the void of Night receives him next, wide gaping, and with utter loss of being threatens him, plunged in that abortive gulf. But I should Ill become this throne, oh peers, and this imperial sovereignty, adorned with splendor, armed with power, if difficulty or danger could deter me from attempting. Wherefore do I assume these royalties and not refuse to reign if refusing to accept as great a share of hazard as of honor? Go mighty powers, terror of Heaven, though fallen, while I abroad through all coasts of dark destruction seek deliverance for us all: This enterprise none shall partake with me.”
Daniel 51:05
So I singled this bit out mainly because of that last line there where he talks about deliverance, which, of course, has a very distinct meeting in religious terms, especially with somebody with a religious outlook of Milton, that it does sort of in everyday English. Uh, Satanists-
Tabitha 51:24
Hey, I just really quickly, like Dinga-a ling, Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, like that? *laughter* I had to; I’m sorry!
Daniel 51:32
Satan is kind of setting himself up here as, as a Christ figure, as somebody who is going to lead them to salvation, quite literally out of their sins. They are, you know, you’ll hear preachers use that phrase, ‘you’re in your sins.’ Here, they are. They’re, like, sitting in them. It’s everywhere. It’s all around them. He’s going to, quite literally, deliver them from that. I find that fascinating and weird. I don’t know about anybody else.
Simone 51:59
I kind of took it as that thing where someone- I mean, this is, this is quite literally, what it does- but it’s a leader who is saying, ‘Oh, no, I wouldn’t be a very fit leader. Now, if I wasn’t, you know, willing to do the things that I’m going to ask you to do. So here, let me, let me do this, let me possibly sacrifice myself’ in order to build that sympathy and loyalty. However, when I was reading this, I couldn’t help but think, he just wanted to leave. He just, he was just like, ‘I gotta get out of here. I’m gonna, I’m gonna make this plan or I can get the fuck out of here.’ Because he specifically says, like, you know, none, none of you are gonna go with me. And I’m like, yeah he just wanted to get the fuck out.
Daniel 52:45
I mean I think the text literally says that at one point. Just after this, Milton butts in with his opinion, pointing out saying it’s like, there would actually be no benefit for him to let anybody else go, so he’s cleverly framing this as self-sacrifice, when, really, it’s just if you’re smart, right, it’s the smart thing to do.
Bella 53:06
Yeah, I would agree that it’s, that it’s a smart tactic to take because they’re the rebels, they’re the adversity and you want to, you want to imply that you’re getting down and dirty with them, unlike God who’s sitting on his throne and has everyone else like angels and the Son doing all the battling and dirty work. Even if Satan is looking for glory, or wants to go his own way, and do his own battling or deviousness up on Earth, I do think that he is using this as kind of a way to connect, or maybe an excuse as well, *laughs* to be like, ‘I’m down with the troops!’
Daniel 53:51
Also apropos of what we were talking about just a second ago, again, a big theme in this is this idea about what makes authority good and right and just and justified. And of course, you know, over the centuries, it has not escaped people’s notice that John Milton is a failed revolutionary, you know, he tried to overthrow this divine monarchy, he failed, he ended up in exile, and he was, in many people’s eyes, vilified for his actions in that. So this question of how was he relating to Satan has created this tension over this poem for, for centuries now. And I, you know, I’m not going to be able to pretend to answer that, but I do know that some critics have offered this idea that he was actually trying to use Satan as a foil for himself. He was saying, you know, you may think that I am this villainous devilish figure, but let me show you what, you know, real evil and real treachery and disloyalty is.’ So, Satan here is kind of trying to offer, he’s trying to give himself legitimacy. He’s undermined this idea that God is a true king, you know, by saying, you know, only through force, only through these simplistic means, you know, has he achieved authority over us- what am I going to do for authority? What am I going to do? Justify sovereignty, I am going to act, you know, I’m going to be self-sacrificing, I’m going to be heroic, I’m going to put myself in the danger that, you know, I would not want you to ask. And so he is offering up an alternative model, which, again, is a fascinating idea. And then, Milton of course, undercuts that completely by saying, *whispers* ‘it’s not really what he’s doing. Be very, very careful when politicians talk like this.’ So again, there’s a lot going on there, you can be very inspired by this idea, but then also acknowledge, you know, that the text is doing different things with it than maybe we would like to.
Bella 55:38
Yeah, I also want to mention on that, that in the text, aside from this, quote, Satan tells his, the rebels, you know, the demons and followers, that he has been chosen as the leader in the situation by the laws of heaven, which is kind of ironic that he is going, he is forming all of this to be against heaven and its hierarchy and structure, but yet, he’s trying to say that, if you, like, because of its structure, he is inadvertently chosen for this role.
Daniel 56:10
That’s true, but you’ll notice, and again, when we get into the later books, you know, Satan has a very different idea of what the Hierarchy of Heaven, and now Hell, is than maybe it was intended. Like here, he still refers to them as his peers, and later on, when he’s rallying everybody [he] talks about, ‘yes, we’re all equal, we’re not necessarily all the same, some of us have higher station than others, but that doesn’t make us better than one another., And so, maybe, he’s- the ideas that he’s trying to translate that now into this new context, saying, ‘you know, I’m not really any different from you. I’m kind of different from you, but not in the ways that matter,’ you know?
Bella 56:45
I feel like, maybe it’s the residual of the beliefs of them. Like, I feel like it’s a way of manipulation, kind of, to sweep up the changing views of like, the troops of Hell, because- I think that making changes from where they came from, just in general, like, in life is, is a long journey, and so people don’t recover from ideologies all at once, you know, or even these, the characters in these stories, like they, they grow and they change. So, to me, I took it as maybe like a residual of if there were any doubters, or people that, you know, maybe held on to that structure of hierarchy, that he would say like, ‘oh, by the way, like, even on those terms, I’m supposed to be in this position.’ Like, almost the, the flip side of God. And I see throughout the, this poem, like, it plays upon that, where he, to where, yeah, like, on one hand, he, he says that there shouldn’t be hierarchy, but then he turns, like in Hell, but then he turns right around and uses him as the designated leader, and on his throne in a way. So, anyways, it seems to flip back and forth, like it never seems to be consistent on how Satan presents his position, because he’s against authority, but yet he’s also at the throne of Hell and at its helm.
Simone 58:25
We’re gonna go ahead and move on to Book Four. Book Three is just a lot of God and Jesus talking, so we don’t care about that. Moving on to Book Four! So, this is Satan has newly arrived in the world and he’s kind of wrestling with his own feelings. “Had this powerful destiny ordained me some inferior angel, I had stood then happy: no unbounded hope had raised ambition. Yet, why not? Some other power as great, might have aspired, and me, though mean, drawn to his part. But other powers as great fell now- whom has I then to accuse but Heaven’s free love- dealt equally to all? Be then that love accursed, since love or hate alike to me deals eternal woe. Which way shall I fly: infinite wrath, and infinite despair? Which way I flee is Hell; myself am hell, and in the lowest deep a lower deep still threatening to devour me opens wide, to which the Hell I suffer now would seem a heaven. Is there no place for pardon left? None but by submission, and that word disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame among the spirits beneath whom I seduced with other promises: While they adore me on the Throne of Hell, With Diadem and Scepter high advanced, the lower still I fall. So farewell hope, and with hope farewell fear, farewell remorse: all good to me is lost. Evil, be thou my good: by thee at least divided empire with Heaven’s king I hold, and more than half perhaps will reign.”
Daniel 1:00:12
Yeah, actually, I’m just going to- apologies to everyone, I’m going to take point on this because this is my favorite bit in the entire poem. Most people find Satan’s- the, the inspiring thing about Satan in this poem, most people find these very stirring speeches that he gives to his troops. This is the part, weirdly enough, that inspires me- it’s this very private moment, where he’s wrestling with doubt and regret and uncertainty in this very human and pained and relatable way, and I think it’s honestly really beautiful. And this is actually what I find inspiring about the character, is this vulnerability. And this is really, very much the model for, if you go back to the Romantic Satanism episode where we talked about the idea of the Romantic Hero, and especially the Byronic Hero, a character’s a hero, not necessarily because he’s admirable in a conventional way, but because what you admire about him is the depth of those feelings, and everything that he’s going through, and just the, the, the sheer weight of the burden of being this guy, but he keeps going through it anyway, and that is what you find so endearing and so admirable about him in that weird, ironic way. That’s this right here. Also, I realized not the most inspiring image, but I kind of think about, I kind of think of Satan as Jack Skellington in this scene, where he’s talking about the burdens- *laughter* expectations. Which again, like I said, is a, is a, not a conventionally heroic posture., but I don’t know, that, that’s very relatable to me. And so, I’ve written about this an awful lot over on the SBA blog, especially a blog that I really like called “Satan the Loser” where, again, as strange as it seems, the thing that I like about Satan is not that he is a mighty, powerful, intimidating figure, but that he is like us- that he is human, and that he is fallible, and that he has to deal with these same things. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that this passage in Book Four, this is actually where he is in a godlike position, because if you think about it, he would be the first person, in the universe, to deal with these feelings. He’s the first person to fail like this, and to have self-doubt like this, he’s the first person to ever deal with Imposter Syndrome, and he is creating this emotional universe that is layered and complex and nuanced, and inspiring, and really beautiful. And I find that quite touching. And so, more than anything, I always come back to this. And I also particularly- sorry, I’ll stop in a second- to a degree in Book One, when we find Satan kind of lying in the Lake of Fire. But again, more importantly, on this moment when he’s reflecting on it with a little more perspective- When there are times in my life when things are really bad, when things are really, really bad, I think about this- I think about that feeling that you get in the pit of your stomach, where all you can think about is, what do I do now? What in the world do I do now? And this story, and this poem in particular, are things that I think about in those moments. So, that’s why I love this and that is what inspires me, so I want the little Reading Rainbow sting to play me out. *chuckles*
Simone 1:03:15
Aw, that was beautiful! Just like your- I can’t recommend the Satanic Bay Area blog, “Satan the Loser” enough. It was really, really well written.
Daniel 1:03:26
Oh, well thank you, that was sweet of you. Anyway-
Simone 1:03:27
I’m biased, but-
Daniel 1:03:28
I’ve monopolized the discussion, how does everybody else feel when they read this?
Simone 1:03:32
Well, so harkening back to something that you said, Daniel, is the kind of relatability, because we’ve seen Satan portrayed as very, very human in other works. I don’t feel that way here, but the, you know, the grappling with this, self-doubt is, like, a very human thing in this kind of un-human being, to my mind. And it’s very sympathetic, because who hasn’t been there, you know? Kind of like, what Daniel said, we’ve all had those moments of, like, you know, you, talking heads and you go, how did I get here? You know, it’s, again, it’s an, it’s a contrast to God who is sitting up and far away and just watching, so, you know, a really good passage.
Tabitha 1:04:20
Yeah, I am. I want to be like, same. Same Satan. There’s something about how much this feels like Depression. And I know we’ve all kind of touched on this, but like, the way he speaks about what’s going on, and what he’s doing sounds to me a lot like Depression. And it feels, it’s messed up to say it, like, it feels good, but, like, it feels nice to be recognized like that in such a big, imposing figure.
Simone 1:04:53
Well, I mean, that’s kind of the thing about most art, you know. Y’all know that I love my Nine Inch Nails- the lyrics are depressing and angry, but when you’re in a concert situation- in the before times anyway- you really feel that you’re not alone, that other- someone has put to words your feelings, and all these other people here with you, singing along, are feeling those feelings too, so to explore that depression is, is really helpful, I think.
Bella 1:05:27
Um, for me, I really feel that accepting the whole spectrum, you know, the whole spectrum of human emotion, both the good and the bad, is part of being a Satanist. Whereas opposed to in this story, there is a part where Uriel, who is in the sun, like, sees him and- Satan is actually sitting on a mountain disguised as a cherub while he’s going over this in his head with this internal dialogue, and Uriel realizes that it’s not an angel or cherub, because he sees the, or Uriel sees the emotion on Satan’s face, and posits that angels don’t have emotion and are always at peace. So, to me, this insinuates, like, the Christian goal for piousness and purity is to be absent of emotion, and that’s what equals peace, but in the Satanic realm, as well as Satan, showing emotion and turmoil is all part of the spectrum once you’ve left Heaven. You know, and it also shows that with, with the story of Adam and Eve that comes along in the paradise loss, and that, they’re kind of naive and shallow in this way and then after getting the Tree of Knowledge, like then they too can experience the full range of human emotion. I know I’m getting a little ahead of myself, but that’s what I see in Satan exposing some of his emotion and internal dialogue and the part where, where they know he’s no longer an angel- or not an angel because angels supposedly don’t have emotion, but so yeah.
Simone 1:07:15
Yeah, I thought that part was, was pretty funny, actually because it’s like, ‘oh, here’s a beautiful cherub, why is he frowning? Wait, that’s not a cherub after all!” *laughter*
Tabitha 1:07:24
*laughing* That’s no cherub!
Simone 1:07:28
That’s no moon; it’s a cherub-
Daniel 1:07:30
That’s creepy, it’s like that scene in Invasion of the Body Snatchers where they figure out who’s not one of them.
Simone 1:07:34
Yeahhh!
Daniel 1:07:36
You know, that, that’s- I particularly I- thank you so much for bringing that up. That’s such a wonderful, beautiful point. And point- going back to what Simone said a second ago about how God is perfect but boring. Actually, in this poem more than anything, Jesus is annoyingly perfect, because, of course, that’s the theology there, right? Like, Jesus is so great you’ll never be as good as him., that’s the whole idea. Whereas-
Simone 1:07:58
It would drive me crazy, too.
Daniel 1:07:59
Yeah. Whereas Satan is already just like us. That is why we find him relatable. And, to the point that, you know, when they put together this story, when they put together the Satan myth, what did they do? They copied and pasted the story of Eve and Adam. This, you know, you, that you’re the preferred- you’re the favorite creation, and then you disobey, and now you live in sin. It’s the exact same story, so I guess it’s not surprising that they ended up sticking Satan in there too because they, they, they do this. It’s, it’s a repeat, it’s a rerun. You know, this really is? This is not Satan. This is the genius of evil when, you know, you look at, when we look at that statue, and, like, when we’re not just checking out his abs, *laughter* but when we look at the emotion of that statue that people find moving, it’s this moment, it’s this feeling that he’s dealing with. What Tabitha said about Depression fascinates me because, I was just the other day watching- if anybody knows the YouTube channel, PhilosophyTube, which, by the way, [Abigail] would love to have you on the show sometime- [She] has a video on there, which is actually about Jordan Peterson of all things, but in that video, he is cosplaying Satan, and he talks about how, yes, being in Depression is very much like being in Hell, and he quotes, not from Paradise Lost, but from Marlowe’s Faustus, but the line there is almost identical where he talks about, you know, “think you Not that I, who saw the face of God/ and tormented by ten thousand hells” by being awake, by being out- no longer there. That idea that everywhere you go was Hell because Hell is that feeling of just not being able to escape these feel- just not being able to escape this thing, that is, that is part of you. Ooh, chills, I get chills again.
Simone 1:09:35
To piggyback off of that, you know, I like the part where he’s talking about I, I’m in Hell, but there’s, you know, if that Hell doesn’t work, there’s another one below that and there’s another one below that, and it’s just Hells all the way down. And one of my favorite quotes describing Depression *sighs* is actually from a fanfic writer, but she put it in a very eloquent way, is that ‘Depression is not the absence of hope, it’s the belief that there never will be hope.’ So, you know, if it’s Hells all the way down, like, *sighs* I mean, why don’t you just lay back down in the Lake of Fire?
Daniel 1:10:17
So here we’re going to go ahead to Book Five. Book Five, as we mentioned in the outline, is a flashback. Now, Raphael is relating the history of the War in Heaven. I’m not 100% sure how he knows this since he wasn’t here for a lot of this stuff, but I guess God sees all. Nevertheless, here is the scene where Satan is rallying the angels to revolution. This is really where he persuades everybody to come over to his side in this conflict, and we mentioned in passing, the thing that incenses them is this creation of God’s Son, and this idea that, now there is not only this new thing that’s been set above them and this idea of, like, ‘Well, why should we be less than him?’ And, you know- so here is what he’s saying, quote, “Thrones, dominations, princedoms, virtues, powers- If these titles [yet remain not] merely titular, since by decree another now to himself has all power, and us eclipsed under the name of king anointed. But what if better councils might erect our minds and teach us to cast off this yoke? Will you submit your next and choose to bend the supple knee? You will not, if I trust to know you right, [of] you know yourselves natives and sons of Heaven, possessed before by none, and if all equal, yet free, equally free. Who can in reason then or right assume monarchy over such as live by right is equals? Or can introduce the low and edict on us, who without law err not, and much less for this to be our lord, and look for adoration to the abuse of those imperial titles which assert our being ordained to govern not to serve?” And so, again, this sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric that young John Milton used to argue for and during that English Civil War, It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of spooky, honestly. Going back to the-
Simone 1:12:11
Well, write what you know, right?
Daniel 1:12:12
Yeah. Going back to the Romantic Satanism episode, you know, we talked about how William Godwin, looking at Satanists or this revolutionary icon, this was the heart of his argument. He said, Satan just does not see this conflict in the same terms that God does. God sees a hierarchy. Satan does not really recognize that authority as natural or even logical. What do we think, based on what he says here? Do we think that this seems like an authentic and reasonable motivation? Do you think that is his ideals hold water?
Bella 1:12:48
Oh, yeah, I don’t have so much to say, because I was thinking that, I was thinking that it would insinuate that legitimacy was the only problem as if Satan still wanted to exist in the structure of hierarchy, but that there’s a paradox and that he acknowledges the hierarchy in some ways, but ultimately, I think he wants to destroy the structure of hierarchy and not be a servitude, in servitude of it. He wants freedom from it. So, I think it goes much further than just the legitimacy of God in his position. But when you were talking, I was thinking, well, maybe he means the legitimacy of the whole structure, which I think is the point I was trying to make. Did any of that make sense? *laughs* I’m starting to feel the fatigue!
Simone 1:13:35
You know, it’s, it’s, well, I mean, it’s heady stuff.
Bella 1:13:39
I think the ultimate idea is that the entire structure must be destroyed, not just the question of if God is legitimate or not and his authority.
Daniel 1:13:50
Well, it’s interesting to hear you say that, because really, if we look at this, what Satan’s argument? He says, you know, things have always been one way and that way was just. Now we’re being asked to take on this extra burden for, as far as we can see it, no reason. And so, in a certain sense, he’s making sort of a reflexive or even regressive argument. He’s saying, you know, this change is wrong for our society, we need to go back to the way things were, but in doing that, he’s actually proposing an even more radical idea. But to him, it doesn’t seem radical, to him it seems natural, you know, to, to challenge God because again, if he does not think of himself as subservient in the first place, he just thought it was, like, we’re all in the natural place, that we, that we’re all in the place that suits us best, and, you know, it’s the lack of merit of this intrusion is what is provoking him. So, I guess there’s a reading by this in which this is only inadvertently revolutionary. And at the same time, [he] now proposes [an] even more radical idea than the one he’s objecting to, which is intriguing.
Simone 1:14:55
Now, we are going to skip a couple of books to get to some of the really good stuff. So, Tab, you’re ready for Book Nine?
Tabitha 1:15:03
I am so ready for book nine. This is Satan disguised as a serpent, beguiling Eve, “Empress of this fair world, resplendent Eve, easy to me it is to tell thee all. I was at first as other beasts that graze the trodden herb. of abject thoughts and low, til on a day roving the field I chanced a goodly tree [loaded] with fruit of the fairest colors mixed, ready and gold. Amid the tree now got, where plenty hung tempting so nigh to pluck and eat my fill, I spared not, for such pleasure till the hour at feed or fountain never have I found. Ere long I perceived strange alteration in me, to degree of reason in my inward powers and speech, though to this shape retained. Thenceforth my speculations high or deep I turned my thoughts, and with capacious mind considered all things in Heaven, or Earth, or Middle, all things fair and good. But all that fair and good in thy divine semblance and in thy beauties I beheld, which compelled me thus to come and gaze, to worship thee, sovereign of creatures. Universal Dame.” Wow.
Simone 1:16:38
Why did this remind me of, like, a really positive Yelp review of a restaurant?
Tabitha 1:16:46
*laughs* So true.
Simone 1:16:47
‘Amazing tree with the best fruit, four stars!’
Tabitha 1:16:50
Yeah.
Simone 1:16:50
‘I got all this knowledge of heaven and earth and the middle, and, you know, big thumbs up.’
Tabitha 1:16:57
I know that this is, like, way not the point, but how does a snake eat an apple? *giggles*
Simone 1:17:04
Swallows it whole?
Tabitha 1:17:05
I guess? You bite it? *laughs*
Simone 1:17:08
It’s just gonna get stuck on its fangs if it’s one of those snakes that [have] them.
Tabitha 1:17:12
Right.
Daniel 1:17:13
So here, I’m gonna lay like, like, for people who, who skipped the college-level literature courses. Here, we’re gonna lay, like, the serious classroom shit on you now because the question that I’ve got is- of course, we know Satan is lying, he’s not really a snake. He did not really eat the fruit of the tree. The fruit of the tree did not make him smarter enough to talk and reason. Except, maybe it has. Because of course, we know that the fruit is a symbol; it’s sin, it’s disobedience, it is, you know, your self-interest. And, in that sense, well, didn’t Satan eat from the tree? Didn’t he do that first? Has he actually gained more knowledge and more perspective from his experience and the things that have happened to him and everything that led him here?
Tabitha 1:18:00
Well, he got depressed. *giggles*
Daniel 1:18:02
Yeah, I mean- which, which, so does Eve, very shortly, so, I don’t know. What do we think? It’s, it’s again, on the superficial level, this is not true, but this might be more honest than he really thinks he’s being, in this moment.
Simone 1:18:18
I like that point that, that he’s being more honest than he himself thinks he is. He, you know, the thing about lying is that if you lie, and you keep the lie as close to the truth as possible, it’s so much more believable, and I kind of feel that here.
Bella 1:18:37
I might be the odd person out in that I can see what you, what is- I can see what the question that you asked is trying to say, that there’s, that there is an accurate, accuracy in it in that eating from the tree of knowledge will change you and give you something deeper than what you had before. But, of course, I feel like it’s still really deceptive because he’s putting forth this idea that ‘Oh, everything is good about it.’ And in reality, and as a Satanist, I know that it’s absolutely not, it’s neither good nor bad, knowledge is a tool and they’re both to be embraced. And once you have knowledge, you have to embrace both sides, all the benefits and the consequences, so I really feel that he is giving Eve the runaround, and that defies really any accuracy or goodness that can be brought from it. I feel like he’s really deceiving her. Although, you know, I, of course, do think that knowledge is a good thing to be had. So, I can see what you’re saying there, in that he has gained some benefit from it.
Simone 1:19:54
Well so, not only is he lying, but he’s also compounding that by lying through omission. Like, he’s not mentioning the pitfalls, so the whole thing is a lie, plus he’s leaving out the downsides.
Tabitha 1:20:08
I also feel like- if we’re, if I am continuing on this train of him being depressed, that he is, you know, misery loves company, right? So, he’s like, ‘Yeah, do it. It’s good. It’s really good.’ And he just wants someone else to be just as miserable as he is. *chuckles*
Simone 1:20:26
Peer pressure.
Tabitha 1:20:27
Yeah. Thanks, Satan. Now I’m smart. Fucker.
Bella 1:20:32
I learned it from you, Satan. *laughter*
Daniel 1:20:36
Well, here’s my point. Here’s why I’m trying to, sort of validate the Satanist reading of this poem in a way that I undermined earlier, where it’s, like, you know, in the same way that John Milton did not set out to write the foundational cornerstone texts of Satanism, but that is still what he did, and I think we would argue that was probably a better result than whatever he actually intended. In sort of the same way, again, Satan is not meaning to be confessional in this moment. He’s not meaning to convey an actual gift onto people. But is he? Is he doing that? Do we, you know, again, we think that it’s better to have knowledge than to dwell in ignorance, even though knowledge is difficult and unpleasant. And so, weirdly enough, I do think that the poem has structured itself in such a way that it reinforces that. I don’t think it meant to, but I definitely think that’s what happened.
Bella 1:21:25
It’s kind of like an ends justifies the means sort of thing?
Daniel 1:21:29
Oh, maybe? That’s not really what I had in mind; what do you mean?
Bella 1:21:33
Like, he’s, he’s deceiving Eve of, with the idea that, of course, it’s good to receive knowledge and go forward- although I guess that’s not his itinerary. Like, he’s out to destroy mankind to take revenge on God and Heaven. But, I was thinking of it as maybe an ends to justify the means that, you know- the way he’s going about it is not right, but in the end, she would receive knowledge, which, as a modern Satanist, I think is the best course of action to take. But, Eve is naive, like, she literally has no skills or experience in making any decisions. She has very poor decision-making skills because she’s never had any experience at all. That’s why he’s hitting her in all these different ways with flattery, and calling her, like, what is it? ‘The queen of the universe’ and stuff like that, like, she’s really no match for Satan, but she’s really no match for anyone. She’s completely inexperienced, which is the downfall of not giving anyone any knowledge or experience in life is that they don’t have any tools to use. Like, it could be anyone, that you can fall for anything you can fall for. *trails off*
Tabitha 1:22:55
She is really good at standing right behind leaves. *laughter* That’s her one skill; being able to stand behind a leaf, so her crotch is covered. *laughs*
Daniel 1:23:08
Really, really high camouflage skill. *laughter* Yeah, here’s, here’s what I’m saying is, like, if we follow this idea that, like, Milton is- how ’bout this? Milton is offering us, with this book, something that is really kind of destructive, he’s offering us these sort of regressive, toxic ideas. This poem is, is sexist, and it’s patronizing, and it’s trying to reinforce theology that is oppressive to us. And even though many of Milton’s political ideas were forward-thinking for their time, to us, they are, you know, baseline at most, you know. So, his intent that he had in writing this was a kind of a net loss, from our perspective, but that was- what his intent, was not his results. He’s given us this poisoned apple, and we ate it and we discovered, ‘oh, this is actually good anyway,’ in a way that he did not intend at all. And so, I would argue that- this is the same way- Satan is trying to do something destructive here, but we have the better perspective to see, no, actually, this was ultimately beneficial in a way that he never intended. So in a very weird way, I interpret the poem, as its- as the subject, in, in a really strange grad school postmodernist way that, again, is definitely going far afield from the text now, but I don’t know. That’s where- that’s how my brain works.
Bella 1:24:28
I agree with you in that, that it has to be compared to the context of the time and the intent of Milton. Like, I thought one of the, kind of, revolutionary or radical ideas that he did in it, is that he made Adam- the reason that Adam was able to, or was tempted to eat the fruit and partook of it, after Eve tried to get him to was because he loved her and wanted to be with her and that’s a different version that is often not put forth in a lot of, in a lot of versions of- Christian versions of the story, and I thought that was interesting because a lot of Christian stories in the Bible kind of denounced the woman, which this story does, too, but it doesn’t really make her an object of love, or an equal. And that’s what Milton does in this story.
Simone 1:25:25
Yeah, in my reading, one of the perspectives was that Eve, being fully, you know, naive and ignorant, she eats of the apple and she sins, but it’s Adam who, like, knows what she’s done and does it willingly, and so that’s worse. A lot of the times, you know, I feel that Eve gets the shit end of the stick because she’s the one to do it and she’s kind of, it’s sort of skewed as she made Adam do it, but here, it feels more, or, you know, the perspective can be taken as Adam, you know, did it willingly and, you know, so, therefore, it was a worse transgression.
Daniel 1:26:11
Yes, going back to what you were saying a second ago about Adam kind of ducking out on responsibility here, that reminds me, if you actually look at Genesis Three, here’s out of the, the ‘Ye Old King James Version,’ let’s see was it- “And the man said, [The] woman whom thou gavest to be…she gave me of the tree and I did eat.” *laughing* So that’s- I crack up every time I read that because you don’t always picture, like, the little kid finger-pointing, ‘Hey, that woman you made for me did all this!’ Like-
Bella 1:26:39
As a woman that kind of makes me feel proud. *laughter*
Tabitha 1:26:43
Yeah, a little bit.
Bella 1:26:45
She was able to rope them into the Tree of Knowledge.
Tabitha 1:26:48
Oopsies! *laughter*
Daniel 1:26:52
I just find it funny that he’s blaming Eve and also indirectly God her,e by saying- it’s like ‘You, you gave me the woman, okay? Let’s, let’s talk about your hand in this!”
Tabitha 1:27:03
I was happy with the rib, okay? I could have just been there with the rib and not be having this problem. *laughter*
Bella 1:27:10
I think blame is a cornerstone, a cornerstone in Christianity as it is.
Simone 1:27:15
Yeah.
Bella 1:27:16
Like, you’re born flawed, God made you do it, Satan made you do it, on and on. There’s always someone to blame other than self in Christianity. *laughs*
Simone 1:27:27
Daniel, wanna do the last passage?
Daniel 1:27:29
So the serpent gives her this story and she objects when she sees the tree’ ‘Oh, this is the one tree that I can’t eat from.’ Of course. And this is what Satan says- this is the clincher argument here. He says, “Oh sacred, wise, and wisdom-giving plant, mother of science, now I feel thy power within me, not only to discern things but to trace the ways of highest agents. Queen of this universe, do not believe those threats of death: you shall not die. How would you? By the fruit? It gives you life to knowledge. By the threatener? Look at me, who have touched and tasted, yet both live? Shall that be shut to man which to beast is open? Or will God incense his ire for such a petty trespass, and not praise your dauntless virtue, whom pain of death denounced- whatever thing death be? Deterred not from achieving what might lead to a happier life: knowledge of good and evil. Of good, how just? Of evil, if what is evil be real, why not [known], since easier shunned? God therefore cannot hurt you and be just. Why [then] was this forbid? Why but to awe, to keep you low and ignorant, his worshippers. He knows that in the day you read thereof, your eyes, that seems so clear yet are dim, shall be perfectly then opened and cleared, and you shall be as gods, knowing both good and evil. These and many more causes import your need of this fair fruit?” So just to be clear, because the phrasing is not completely transparent here, where he’s saying, “Of good, how just,” meaning that if God punished you for knowing what is good, how would that be right? And then “of evil,” you know, “why not?” Since then you would know what is, if not, “why not known since easier shunnned,” so why would God punish you for knowing what is evil? How can you really be obedient if you don’t know what’s wrong? Then Eve, of course, is lying there, saying ‘what is evil anyway,’ which she’s asking rhetorically, but is actually a legitimate question on the part of Eve. Eve really has no idea what the stakes here is. She doesn’t know what knowledge is. She doesn’t know what good and evil mean. Is this really a fair test to put in front of her or for God to have placed in her path and then for Satan to be playing on here? It’s, it’s a contradiction in terms, isn’t it?
Simone 1:29:41
Well, earlier in the book, you know, doesn’t- God acknowledges that he knows what’s going to happen. He knows that, you know, as we previously said, if they aren’t given the chance to fail, you know, through free will, they are as slaves and so God is still allowing this to happen. So it could be argued that it doesn’t matter if it’s fair or not, because God already knows the outcome, and, I guess, it’s an outcome that he was cool with.
Tabitha 1:30:14
It’s like God got tired of his toys, and so he manufactured this whole thing to get rid of Adam and Eve. It’s like, ‘I’ll get this angel, he’s kind of a pain in the ass, so let’s just make sure that he doesn’t want to stay here, and then eventually he’ll go fuck around my kids.’ *laughter*
Simone 1:30:33
And, and, I, you know, just to continue a little bit. You know, we, we talk about how naive and fragile, if you will, Eve is. She’s like a lamb. You know, we talked on our goat show about how delicate sheep, you know, baby sheep are, and so, she is, you know, if God has foreknowledge of what’s going to happen, and he knows that she’s gonna do it, and he’s gonna punish her, he is again, sacrificing another innocent, essentially,
Bella 1:31:04
There are plenty [of] instances in the Bible where God is toying and torturing humans.
Simone 1:31:11
Totally.
Bella 1:31:12
What I saw in this is that the story is trying to note the transformation of Eve, eventually, through eating the Tree of Knowledge, but I don’t see that happening yet because I think the transformation is from the experiences and the consequences that you get from receiving knowledge and, and the things that happen to you in, in action. So I feel like here she is just doing the same thing; like, first she believes God and what he says, like, wholeheartedly without question and doesn’t seem to have the ability to discern the veracity of information that she hears and now she’s receiving it from Satan and she’s doing it- the same thing, like anyone that has experience is going to assess the information and be able to, to portion it out and make some investigation, but once again, she doesn’t; that’s part of her naivety. So she in, if she was to have her own story, I think it would come upon as well. And in the story, in this story, it kind of seems to center around Satan and his journey instead, which is also a progressive one. So.
Daniel 1:32:27
Well, I’m glad that Simone brought that up, because that- to the surprise of no one- I’ve got a bone to pick with god’s rationale for this whole thing to begin with. Where he says, you know, ‘I have to give them a choice or they’re not really free.’ Okay, that sounds good on paper, but if the choice you’re giving people is, here’s two binary options, if you picked the wrong one, I’ll kill you. Well, then there’s, that’s not really freedom, now is? *laughs* That’s, that’s, even on paper, that’s not really freedom. What’s actually happening here is we have this 1000’s year-old folk myth that no longer fits the theology, you know, the story was written- you don’t know what the assumptions of the people who created it were, but now it has to exist in this frame of reference in which God is assumed to know everything, and so, just like back in Book Three, which we skipped because Satan’s not in it, where Jesus asks, ‘Why would you allow this in the first place?’ Well, he’s got to come up with an answer for that, and I guess this is the best answer he could come up with. But really, the answer is, the answer does not suit the story at all because it’s a post hoc rationalization from 1000s of years later, from a radically different context. So here, again, is where I kind of attempt to, for lack of a better word, redeem the Satanist reading of this book, saying that, if Milton and conventional theology of his time can take this old story and interpret it in a radically different way that it was never intended to, fine. So can we. And if his reading is just- that is valid, then so is ours. You know, we’re doing the exact same thing that he did, and really, what could possibly suit the spirit of the work better than that, right?
Simone 1:34:01
Yeah, yeah.
Tabitha 1:34:02
*in a silly voice* Yeahhh, that’s real nice. I like that.
Bella 1:34:05
Well, well, Milton’s goal was kind of to justify and inform that God is actually pulling all the strings. Do you think that he succeeded in this epic?
Daniel 1:34:16
If he wanted to make God look good, then no. *Simone laughs* He just- it is a coherent story, but it probably does not fulfill his rhetorical aims, but, you know, that’s my opinion.
Bella 1:34:30
I feel that he failed in that respect, too because, like you said, it doesn’t really make sense that- Oh- It almost seems like an excuse, where they’re, like, ‘oh, God knew that was gonna happen,’ or ‘oh, yeah, he meant him to do that.’ You know? *laughs* Like, throughout, and it just doesn’t jive in the end for me.
Daniel 1:34:49
Yeah, I mean, that, that’s exactly what Shelley said, right? Again, going back to the previous episode, Percy said, ‘You can’t read this and think that God is in the right and once you accept the idea that God is wrong, Satan actually looks like a lot better by comparison, because at least he’s got integrity. At least he’s consistent. At least, you know, it all adds up on Satan’s end, right?’
Tabitha 1:35:08
Well, he gets a story arc and that’s awesome. You know, how many actual Bible stories or anything actually have a real arc and isn’t just, like, here’s a cautionary tale, here’s when we killed some people, I don’t know why? *laughter*
Simone 1:35:22
You get some more character development.
Daniel 1:35:25
That’s, that’s actually, that’s actually a great survey of the Bible. *laughter*
Bella 1:35:32
You know what, giving voice to the adversarial part and making him more human is actually a really powerful tool to make people question the premise before of the person in power. and that’s what this, this story ultimately does, because modern Satanists in the 2000s are now using it as a basis *laughs* and it goes to Satanic literature, so there you go.
Tabitha 1:35:32
He’d hate that, and I am all the way for that. *laughter*
Bella 1:36:03
I find that to be delightful. *more laughter*
Bella 1:36:07
Success!
Simone 1:36:10
Let’s go ahead- let’s, you know, bring this discussion home. You know, in terms of overall impressions of the book. I know some of y’all have read it many times, and some of us are a little newer, so let’s start with Tabitha. Tabitha, what were your overall impressions of the epic poem Paradise Lost?
Tabitha 1:36:33
Uh, Satan is a sad boy-
Simone 1:36:34
Aw.
Tabitha 1:36:34
-and I love him very, very much. *giggles* I think that it, it goes- I like the journey that we go on with Satan and I think that, even though I’m not really a big fan of liars, I think that because- going back to this whole thing that I’ve been, this through-line of Depression is that it feels very real and that it’s definitely something that a trod-upon depressed person would do.
Simone 1:37:08
To piggyback off of what Tab said, I like that Satan here is complicated. You know, is he lying? Is he, you know, lying, but telling the truth? Is he, you know, prideful? Is he doing the whole sour grapes thing? There’s a lot going on here and a lot of religious stories, you get these one-dimensional cardboard cutouts, you know, someone’s all good, someone’s all bad, and, you know, in many portrayals of Satan, it’s the, the complexity that I think is interesting, and this is, you know, one of the first examples of the character being given that complexity. Bella, how about you?
Bella 1:37:52
Well, I’m actually the same as you in that the biggest thing I got from it is that it exposes a lot of the complexities of Satan. I think that the largest power in this epic is showing his vulnerabilities. I think that- I actually feel a bit conflicted about the version of Satan in that he, he’s a paradox in a lot of ways, but yet, I think that harks on to, you know, being a complex being, and actually, it’s part of being very human, like he was cast from Heaven, and, you know, embraced, engaging in Earth, and in a way, became what we now know to be human, which is very vulnerable and is across the large spectrum of not only emotion, but good and evil. So, that kind of goes with what a lot of modern Satanists believe is that we accept and kind of embrace all those versions and sides of us, and then also take responsibility for it, so that’s what I kind of saw in this epic.
Simone 1:39:06
Daniel, how about you?
Daniel 1:39:07
Well, you know, I’m actually going to close, not with my statement, because anybody who’s listened to the show for any length of time knows that I really, really love this poem, and so I think I’ve gone on the record quite enough about that already. Instead, I’ve got a question for people, and my question is- you know, again, I love this poem, and I want more people to read it, especially more Satanists. And in fact, I want them to read it in the, sort of, unhindered way. I actually really don’t like those additions that have the, the quote-unquote translation because I feel like that encourages- go ahead.
Simone 1:39:44
I was just gonna say, it actually was kind of distracting. I would force myself just to read Milton’s lines for, like, a page, and then go back and just, like, confirm with the translation.
Daniel 1:39:57
I, I don’t like those things because I feel like they encourage reading the work in a way that treats the language, the text, like an obstacle that you have to overcome, but it’s not. The text is the whole reason you should be reading it. The text is the poem, quite literally, and it’s part of the appeal of it. I understand the idea, the frustration that some people feel, where they say, why can’t this just be more clear? Why can’t it get to the point? But, in [these] terms, like, the language that’s being used is the point, is the fact that the writer felt this is the only appropriate way to tell this story. When you read the beginning, the first lines of Paradise Lost, which actually are very unhelpfully opaque if you’re being dropped into them without any preparation or advanced warning, it is him asking, he says, like, ‘please give me the words that are suitable to tell this story the way that it deserves to be,’ so the text is, is, not only the story, but it’s a tool that is being used in the story in this very critical way. At the same time, I’ve talked about this on the show before, I don’t really know how to do that. I know that you can’t nag people into doing something like this, and also just telling them, they should- like, of course, everybody knows, they should probably read more classic literature, it’s probably not a lack of ambition on the part of most people that they’re not doing that. It’s probably that they’ve got fucking lives, and they’ve got all the things going on, and they’ve also got, like, some people, you know- some people actually can’t deal with texts, sometimes. They actually, you know, for, for neurological or learning reasons, really struggle with this in a way that the rest of us don’t have to worry about, and so, I find myself uncertain how to persuade people to approach a poem like this in the way that I really, genuinely think would be most rewarding for everybody. So I don’t know how to do that, and so that is my question for all of the listeners. What do you think? What do you think is the best way beyond just telling people they should do something? But what is the best way to, like, holistically motivate people- because of course, if only people are really reading it out of a sense of obligation, obviously, that’s not going to do anybody any good, you’re not going to enjoy it, and you’re probably not going to get everything out of it that somebody like me hopes that you would, so how do we make people want to do these things in a way that really, really persuade- that, that really solves these problems? I don’t know the answer to that; I wish I did. I will continue to labor to find that out.
Simone 1:42:21
Well, I’m going to compare it to Game of Thrones in that, you know, those are quite thick books, can be a little bit intimidating, but when the show came out, you know, I watched the first season of the show and was, you know, it’s- I used it as a, as a primer for actually- as soon as the first season of the show was over, I went and read, like, the next three books, and if you give folks, like, a taste or a simplified version, you kind of show them that world, I think they might be more inclined, or less scared, to tackle the source material. And it’s funny, back when I was working in LA as a talent agent’s assistant, there was a guy on our floor, who was a producer, whose name totally escapes me, but he had been trying to get Paradise Lost the movie made, for years. It actually-
Daniel 1:43:15
Oh, you knew that guy?
Simone 1:43:17
I think there’s been a couple, to be honest.
Daniel 1:43:19
Oh, okay.
Simone 1:43:20
It’s, you know, public domain, so, you know, lots of people can, can try and take a bite at the apple, if you will, but the producer who was just in the building with us, it was like this, he- it was like Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the hill, like, he was not getting anywhere and it was kind of a, kind of a joke amongst the assistants.
Daniel 1:43:45
So, so he was, so it was in development Hell?
Simone 1:43:48
He very much was. *Daniel laughs* But I think about it, and I’m just, like, man, if he had like gone through and actually made it- first of all, there’s so many different ways you could portray this, you know? It’s such a long epic with all these different characters and, as we’ve already talked about, Satan is very complex, and so, you could paint him sympathetically. You could paint him, you know, as the evil liar. So actually, you know, I think Scott Derrickson, the director of Dr. Strange, had been working on a Paradise Lost because I saw some creature renderings of Lucifer versus Satan. But, yeah, the producer who, you know, happened to work on Wilshire Boulevard versus Scott Derrickson. I would have loved to have seen all of them and compared them, and then yes. I think for most people, that would be a good introduction to take, taking that further step of listening to it on audiotape or actually reading it. Bella, do you have any suggestions?
Bella 1:44:56
No, that’s a hard one because it is notoriously difficult to get people to read, especially something like an extremely long epic from the 1600s, *laughs* especially when there are things available, like the simple version of, ‘then he flew.’ I personally think it’s a tool, and it’s a good tool for me, it kind of wipes out, you know, some of the clogs that I get sometimes if I’m reading- if I’m reading a lot of this poem, like, my, my head starts to bunch up, and so, I like having that tool, that as a tool. But, of course, I recommend to read the actual poem because, you know, it would be kind of weird and stupid to read, ‘then he flew.’ *laughter* It’s so simple, it wouldn’t be anything- it wouldn’t even be worth reading, but I think it’s a good tool, but me being, me having and running the Satanic Book Room, you know, I’ve looked at a lot of other book clubs, and a lot of them fail. A lot of them don’t stick around for very long because it’s really difficult to keep motivating people to participate and pick up books. Like, the reality is, is that a lot of people would rather see the movie version, or, you know, or whatever, or watch something else on TV instead of picking up a book, especially a really long, old classic poem, so that’s the question that remains to be answered. I know that the Satanic Book Room continued, continues to persist because we occupy a niche, which is Satanic literature and, you know, when you’re thinking of a group of Satanists, a lot of them are devoted to continuing to learn about it and, you know, that’s also kind of a cornerstone of being a Satanist, is continuing to embrace knowledge and move forward. You know, we like to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but getting people en mass to agree to read this poem in the raw, I think is- might be an uphill battle. *laughs* It’s hard to do; it’s hard to motivate people in that way.
Daniel 1:47:10
Well, you know, I realized-
Bella 1:47:11
But I still encourage it. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Daniel 1:47:14
It’s okay. I will add one thing. I don’t want to shame people, by the way, who, like, read that addition with the quote, unquote, translation, but, even though I really hate that. If you read that? Great, wonderful. I think that i think that’s fantastic relative to say, not reading it at all. If you only made it a little way into the book, and maybe you feel bad about that, I think that’s still wonderful that you cared. I think, even if you’re somebody who just, like, wants to read it, and you have not gotten to do it yet, even that is really an accomplishment relative to the people who don’t give a shit, the people who couldn’t be bothered to care, so I definitely don’t want to, you know, shame or stigmatize anybody who tries to approach a work like this in any way that works for them. Even though again, I have my opinions about what way is best, so, but I think that’s really important.
Simone 1:48:00
And Tabitha, what about you?
Tabitha 1:48:02
I’ve got three words. Hip Hop. Broadway. Musical! *laughs*
Simone 1:48:12
Wow. Wow.
Tabitha 1:48:16
Paradise Lost by Lin Manuel Miranda. *cackles*
Simone 1:48:21
I mean, shit-
Bella 1:48:22
The never-ending joke. *laughter* That was it. *laughs*
Tabitha 1:48:26
*laughing* That was my joke! *Bella laughs* It’s a zinger!
Simone 1:48:30
To be honest, like, there are only two ways you could ever get me in a theater to see a musical- no offense to my friends who love musicals, I’m happy that you have this love, but it’s not shared by me- first- Oh! Trent Reznor was nominated for an Emmy, so he’s gonna get that ‘E’ for the EGOT, that just leaves a Tony, and I *will* go see that show, but Lin Manuel Miranda doing a Hamilton take on Paradise Lost? Yeah, yeah, I’m gonna have to be there. *laughter*
Daniel 1:48:59
You know what, Tabitha is joking, but honestly? Look at that example- look at like, like, to make people in the 21st century, in America, care so much about Alexander Hamilton, the nerdiest, most obscure fucking American history niche that you could possibly have fallen into, and now? Like, that’s the, that’s- but people’s love for that is now entirely sincere, so you know what? The line between erudition and popular appeal is thin and weird.
Bella 1:49:30
So that was Tabitha’s joke, but it actually turned out to be the best answer.
Simone 1:49:35
True.
Tabitha 1:49:35
Like, how do you motivate people to be involved in Paradise Lost and want to also read it? If-
Tabitha 1:49:41
This is why they put me on the show. *laughter*
Bella 1:49:45
It was brilliant.! *more laughter*
Simone 1:49:47
Okay. Well, Bella, thank you again so much for joining us today. If folks are interested in learning more about the Satanic Book Room, maybe even joining and picking up the next selection, where can they find you?
Bella 1:49:59
All right, well, we’re on Facebook under groups and it’s just the Satanic Book Room. Come on down. I run it, as well as the help of three wonderful admins. We’re constantly adding new material and discussing Satanic literature.
Simone 1:50:17
Okay.
Bella 1:50:17
We also have a lot of files of books that you can read from our- oh, what is it? From our archive or files area- our files area includes a lot of free press books of Satanic literature and background that you can read.
Simone 1:50:37
And of course, if you want to get in touch with us here at the podcast, our email address is blackmassappealpod@gmail.com. The website is blackmassappeal.com and you can find us as Black Mass Appeal on most social media platforms, including Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Daniel 1:50:55
If you want to find out more about Satanic Bay Area, check us out at satanicbayarea.com. You can find us on Facebook and on Instagram as Satanic Bay Area or follow us on Twitter- the handle there is @SatanicSF. Under normal circumstances, you could also come down to satanic coffee hour at Wicked Grounds coffee shop in San Francisco on the third Thursday of every month, but of course, I don’t need to tell you that has been indefinitely postponed for painfully obvious reasons. Instead, pay attention to our Google Calendar and our social media to find out when we’re having our next online chat and, Tabitha, next time we do what are we going to be having?
Tabitha 1:51:30
Leftover Thai food!
Daniel 1:51:31
Ooh, oh! Fuck, I forgot about the leftover Thai food.
Tabitha 1:51:34
Yeah, we got leftover Thai food, including crab fried rice and I’m gonna munch it.
Daniel 1:51:39
Oh, we gotta Hail Satan and get on that then. All right, in that case, Hail Satan, everybody.
Tabitha 1:51:45
Yay!
Simone 1:51:45
Yeah.
Daniel 1:51:46
3, 2, 1-
Black Mass Appeal 1:51:48
Hail Satan! *Eddie Money’s Two Tickets to Paradise plays*
The post Episode 77 – Paradise Lost appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
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Love is in the air, as we discuss Romantic literature’s true devotion to Satan. Sure, we all love Satan, but how often can we say we’ve nursed Romantic feelings about him? Turns out the answer is quite a bit, as our modern Satanic concept of who Satan is and what he stands for stems almost entirely from the affections of the Romantics, a school of European writers and artists from the 19th century who, yes, romanticized all things devilish. Here to help us explore that loving legacy, we have Michael Osiris Snuffin, lifelong Satanist and author of Introduction to Romantic Satanism. And in the news, the UK has a new angle on the worst Satanists in the world, and locally, the sun also rises on Satanic Bay Area’s big reunion.
Praise, condemnation, questions, and overdue fees can be sent to blackmassappealpod@gmail.com.
The post Episode 75 – Romantic Satanism appeared first on Black Mass Appeal.
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